Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions => Topic started by: Cory Ander on January 01, 2010, 03:48 PM
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It is widely held, by the more "seasoned" members here (read "old"! :P), that BIR curries today taste and smell considerably different than those of yesteryear (e.g. those of the 1970s and 1980s). It is one of the reasons, I feel, that members are probably chasing different end points in their curry cooking endeavors.
Why is this? No doubt the reasons are many and varied.
These are some of my thoughts (albeit largely conjecture on my part):
1. Change in Ethnicity of BIR Ownership:
a. Up until 1998, around 85% of all BIRs were owned and operated by Bangladeshis (formerly Eastern Pakistan)
b. This percentage had declined to around 65% by 2003 (and has no doubt declined further since)
c. The percentage of Bangladeshi owned restaurants continues to decline in London and the further north of England you go
d. In Glasgow, there is now a predominance of Punjabi owned BIRs
(Reference: Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry))
It is reasonable to assume, therefore, that today's BIRs reflect this increasing ethnic diversity of restaurant ownership in more diverse BIR menus (i.e. regionally Indian based rather than Bangladeshi based), ingredients and cooking techniques.
2. Market Differentiation:
To me, there seems little doubt that many BIRs are trying to differentiate themselves, from the traditional high street BIR, by moving more "up market". More exotic menus are presented, usually emphasizing the use of fresher and more exotic ingredients and generally based on regional Indian curry cooking (e.g. Punjabi, Peshawar, Nepalese, Sri Lankan, Goan, etc). This will often go, hand in hand, with more traditional Indian cooking methods (e.g. perhaps not using a curry base).
The resultant curries will not only be different (that is not to say worse) from those typical of yesteryear, but will also generally cost more and take longer to prepare and serve.
3. Changes in Food Regulations:
There can be little doubt that food hygiene standards have become more stringent over the years. I suspect that restaurant practices, which were once commonplace, are probably no longer so commonplace. This might, conceivably, include things like the declining use of "reclaimed oil" (for example)
4. Health Awareness:
There is also little doubt, in my mind, that Indian (and Chinese) restaurants once used copious amounts of MSG as a flavour enhancer. There is also little doubt, in my mind, that they also once used copious amounts of salt, artificial food colouring and lots of "unhealthy" cooking oils and fats.
It seems to me that the trend, nowadays, due to public awareness and subsequent pressure, is for BIRs to try and reduce the quantities of these "unhealthy" ingredients in their curries. In fact, many BIRs now advertise the reduction in their use of these ingredients as a market differentiator and selling point. However, there is also no doubt, to my mind, that some of these ingredients are fundamental to developing the taste and smell of curries from yesteryear.
So, modern day curries may arguably be a little less unhealthy for you, but perhaps at a penalty (to some people's minds) of a different (some might say inferior) taste and smell.
5. Availability of Commercially Prepared Ingredients:
To me, it is apparent that, nowadays, BIRs make more use of pre-prepared commercial ingredients (e.g. curry pastes, curry powders, garlic and ginger pastes, processed meats, etc). Indeed, commercially available ingredients, such as Patak curry paste (use of which is now evident in most BIRs) would simply have been unavailable, for their use, prior to the early 1990s.
Once again, use of these pre-prepared commercially available ingredients no doubt results in a different tasting and smelling curry than those of yesteryear.
Well, these are my thoughts on why curries today taste and smell different from those of yesteryear. Has anyone any other possible reasons they would like to suggest?
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This all sounds valid to me. Reminds me that I need to do some experimenting with MSG.
The Bangladeshi connection for me is key. The only "great" curries I've had have come from Bangladeshi-run restaurants. I remember that being true when I lived in the UK, and now in Canada the only good one (out of the dozens I've tried) is Bangladeshi-run.
I can't compare these to what curries were like in the 70's/80's, but they are the best I personally have ever had.
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Well, these are my thoughts on why curries today taste and smell different from those of yesteryear. Has anyone any other possible reasons they would like to suggest?
It's your imagination
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It's your imagination
Does that mean that you think there is no difference then Gary?
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The older BIR's didn't use ginger in their base, and recycled their old oil in the base too.
They used very little spicing in their curries
Mainly chillie with just a pinch of other spices and salt
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tried my anorac on for a while over new yr and asked my mates in the midlands what's changed in the taste of the 70's curry.
hotness, more dishes and adapting to attract a bigger market.
CA's introduction sits well with me. haldi's list pretty much sums it up other than to add greater use of fresh veg ie green pepper.
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CA I think your last reason is possibly one of the biggest contributors. I think the availability of commercially prepared products for the catering trade has stemmed from the increase in demand in the UK from the 70s to 80s for curries. Indeed it has been said that CTM has replaced fish and chips as the nation's favourite dish. This being the case, commercial opportunities have opened up and been filled by pre-prepared products leading to a homogenised set of products that we now know as BIR curries.
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one further suggestion (altough not unanimous) was that most in extending the range of recipes had failed overall in maintaining quality. it was also questionable whether these "extensive" menu dishes ever get ordered.
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1. Change in Ethnicity of BIR Ownership:
a. Up until 1998, around 85% of all BIRs were owned and operated by Bangladeshis (formerly Eastern Pakistan)
b. This percentage declined to around 65% in 2003 (and has no doubt declined further since)
c. The percentage of Bangladeshi owned restaurants continues to decline in London and the further north of England you go
I read this a few weeks ago (although I don't recall where) and thought at the time that this is probably the exact reason, at least for me personally, that I can no longer find the type of curry I used to get. I started eating curries in a big way in the early eighties in London. Since then I've gradually migrated ever northward.
I reckon a trip to London must be on the cards to my old haunts to see if I can catch the disappearing Bangladeshi BIR!
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I read this a few weeks ago...and thought..that this is probably the exact reason, at least for me personally, that I can no longer find the type of curry I used to get
It might be part of the reason (i.e. more diverse BIR ownership) but not all, because it implies, nevertheless, that the majority of BIRs are STILL Bangladeshi owned and run.
However, I think what it really explains is how members' perceptions of what is BIR depends upon the nature of the BIR they are familiar with. The Ashoka, for instance, clearly is not Bangladeshi owned and run
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The Ashoka, for instance, clearly is not Bangladeshi owned and run
I wouldn't be so sure to jump to that conclusion. I just think they are trying something different with their menu choices and methods. Not what I'm looking for, but to each his own.
A few of the names mentioned on the Ashoka website (owner, chefs) sound like they could definitely be Bangladeshi. The owner is a guy named Imtiaz Aslam. I'd bet a few quid that he's Bangladeshi.
I'd say being Bangladeshi is a strong indicator of more traditional BIR establishments, but not a dead certainty. Some of the other points you make would also come into play.
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A few of the names mentioned on the Ashoka website (owner, chefs) sound like they could definitely be Bangladeshi. The owner is a guy named Imtiaz Aslam. I'd bet a few quid that he's Bangladeshi
I thought the owner's name is Sanjay Majhu? I read somewhere that he was born in Kenya and arrived in Scotland when he was 2, 4 or 12 (take your pick!)? His mother is Sikh and his father is Hindu http://www.nriinternet.com/NRIrestaurants/UK/Sanjay_Majhu/index.htm (http://www.nriinternet.com/NRIrestaurants/UK/Sanjay_Majhu/index.htm). And that they specialise in "authentic Parsee cuisine"? And that they are "the only Indian restaurant in Scotland to use the method of oven bake cooking, without the use of oil"?
Nevertheless, I suppose my point is that there are more and more Indian restaurants that are reflecting regional Indian, rather than specifically Bangladeshi, menus and, consequentially, more traditional cooking techniques. Members who are more familiar with these restaurants will undoubtedly perceive them to be "typical BIRs".
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Here's the extent of my research: http://www.ashokarestaurants.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=1&Itemid=137 (http://www.ashokarestaurants.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=1&Itemid=137)
Maybe Panpot could clarify...
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"the only Indian restaurant in Scotland to use the method of oven bake cooking, without the use of oil"
I think that's rubbish. On the recipes section, I checked the Chasni, Korma, and Rogan Josh - they all use quite a bit of oil. Given these are obviously "home" recipes, without a base.
I do recall the Ashoka base sauce being one of the greasiest I've made...
The only oven baked component of the Ashoka recipes that I can recall was the marinated chicken.
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I think that's rubbish
Hmmm, that statement might be from another (i.e. non-Harlequin owned) Indian restaurant? http://www.ashokaglasgow.co.uk/ (http://www.ashokaglasgow.co.uk/)
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Hmmm, that statement might be from another (i.e. non-Harlequin owned) Indian restaurant? http://www.ashokaglasgow.co.uk/ (http://www.ashokaglasgow.co.uk/)
You're right CA. I assumed you were referencing the "Ashoka" from the Panpot threads - which was Ashoka at the Quay - a Harlequin restaurant.
How many Ashokas does one city need? :-X
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I assumed you were referencing the "Ashoka" from the Panpot threads - which was Ashoka at the Quay - a Harlequin restaurant
So did I! :P
Better scrap the bit about "parsee" and "oil free oven baking" then....but the rest still stands :P
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i feel the state "%" of the Bangladeshi chef is far worse than perceived.
i have no idea what has happened but the vast increase in BIR in recent years is not related to an increase in Bangladeshi chef's. yes some restaurants have opened additional outlets but Bangladeshi are mainly family businesses and well aware of the pitfalls of expanding too much.
i ask where the chef is from whenever i try a new place. the staff whoever they are like to talk about this ie about themselves.
i am sure imposter's have filled the market having only a small part of the knowledge or the lack of passion in food that the Bangladeshi have - it's like comparing english and french in terms of cooking.
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My first curry was a chicken Madras from a little place in Kinross around 1999 / 2000. It was like molten lava. I daren't think what their Vindaloo would be like. Anyway, I went back about a year ago and got one. It was nothing like I remembered. It was just like a remarkably average hot Madras recipe for here. It was the same chef and everything. Next time I was in I asked if they changed their recipe. They said they had not. I would suggest that when I reminisced about the curry, my brain put a bit of a silver lining on it.
I certainly think that the old school guys on the forum are looking for something different to what they're making but perhaps a little less different than they think?
Making as many curries as I do, to the very high standard that the recipes on this forum allow, I'd say I've developed a bit of an educated BIR curry palate. Places that I used to think make great curries are often now just so-so but nothing about the establishments appears to have changed. Could this improved BIR curry eating palate contribute to member's feelings of places going downhill? I mean, you'd have to be buying BIR all the time to go through nearly as many curries as you do when you're knocking up base sauce batches left right and centre!
Alternatively, the chef at that little place in Kinross just made me a shit curry! (no pun intended)
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My first curry was a chicken Madras from a little place in Kinross around 1999 / 2000. It was like molten lava. I daren't think what their Vindaloo would be like. Anyway, I went back about a year ago and got one. It was nothing like I remembered. It was just like a remarkably average hot Madras recipe for here. It was the same chef and everything. Next time I was in I asked if they changed their recipe. They said they had not. I would suggest that when I reminisced about the curry, my brain put a bit of a silver lining on it.
I certainly think that the old school guys on the forum are looking for something different to what they're making but perhaps a little less different than they think?
Making as many curries as I do, to the very high standard that the recipes on this forum allow, I'd say I've developed a bit of an educated BIR curry palate. Places that I used to think make great curries are often now just so-so but nothing about the establishments appears to have changed. Could this improved BIR curry eating palate contribute to member's feelings of places going downhill? I mean, you'd have to be buying BIR all the time to go through nearly as many curries as you do when you're knocking up base sauce batches left right and centre!
Alternatively, the chef at that little place in Kinross just made me a shit curry! (no pun intended)
Some interesting points there Bobby. Its well accepted that our taste buds change as we grow older, for example I used to hate sprouts as a kid but now I love em. If we are comparing curries of today to those we tasted 20 or more years ago isn't it almost guaranteed that they will taste slightly different today? Also we develop a tolerance to chilli as we eat more of it, so a Madras would be like Molten Lava if we hadn't eaten much chilli laden food before that. Could it also be the same for the other spices?
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I can sort of buy into this and sort of not. I was away from the UK for about 5 years before I went back for a visit last spring. I ate at BIRs exclusively for the whole time I was there (ok, maybe an odd kebab thrown in). The taste was exactly as good as I remember, perhaps even better, given 5 years of crap Canadian curries. The best ones I ate were by far my own.
I can sort of understand SS when he says "if I found it I'd know it". But then again 5 years and 20 years are different altogether.
I used to hate sprouts as a kid but now I love em
I still hate sprouts.
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It might be part of the reason (i.e. more diverse BIR ownership) but not all, because it implies, nevertheless, that the majority of BIRs are STILL Bangladeshi owned and run.
Yes, but the point I was making is that they are dwindling in number, and their distribution was, and apparently still is, biased towards the South.
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I certainly think that the old school guys on the forum are looking for something different to what they're making but perhaps a little less different than they think?
and from currymonster:
If we are comparing curries of today to those we tasted 20 or more years ago isn't it almost guaranteed that they will taste slightly different today?
I don't know if you are saying this to wind us old timers up or you actaully believe this.
Anyway the answer is simple, you are both wrong!
I still make recipes from different cuisines that I started making in my early teens. They taste, smell, and look the same now as they did then, no difference at all.
So, unless there is something specific to curries that our senses of taste and smell detect differently with time, then the large difference I detect between the curries of today and those of yesteryear are real, and not the ravings of a middle aged curry addict! ;D ::)
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the large difference I detect between the curries of today and those of yesteryear are real, and not the ravings of a middle aged curry addict! ;D ::)
Are there any other reasons (other than those mentioned so far) that you think are responsible for this change in BIR curries over the years SS?
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Are there any other reasons (other than those mentioned so far) that you think are responsible for this change in BIR curries over the years SS?
Not really, other than those I've mentioned in this and other threads. But that's sort of the point isn't it, if I knew what ALL the reasons for the change were, I wouldn't be on this forum griping about the sad demise of the taste and smell, I'd be cooking it!
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i feel spice mix has a part to play.
i'm just getting to point when i can experiment a little on this.
i find i quite like bassar (not in every type of dish for sure though). in fact in some dishes ie Kashmiri when i've tried mix powder in place of bassar i've been real disappointed.
i need to perhaps try bassar on it's own in madras. i don't think bassar is it but something along those lines is needed along with the other observations.
i can see it (the 70's curry) and i know time & brain will have distorted to an extent. the last place i know of has finally succumbed to the wider market appeal. like all things we will perhaps just have to wait 10 yrs or so until fashion returns. until then - bahar it is.
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Hi
Maybe to get a better idea of yesteryear curies we should consider the migration from the Indian continent and not just the ownership of curry houses, eg. partitioning of India led to Kasmiri guests. Bengal Independence led to Bengali guests. Also traditional dishes from these areas,(you don't get much fresh water fish in BIR do you). The question raised by SS on another thread about a recipes containing yogurt and nuts about being Balti, is an excellent example. As Mongol influences do exist in Northwest Frontier cooking. Also what spices were comonly available at an affordable price, these early BIR meals were cheap eats ,not fine dining in the whole.
Regards
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commis,
interesting thoughts.
BIR's for sure were cheap eats. i had very little money and probably eat out 3 times a week. i can't do that now.
stripping back on the spice is key for me too. there was certainly no shortage of what was available. what was available is hard to pick out but way off what is today.
the only history i have is from the book, "Curry A tale of cooks and conquerors". this suggests the Bangladeshi were the 1st curry houses. i feel these are my 70's curry.
the book does not cover your observations which sit well with me too. i think these must essentially have been the starting's of the 90's curries (i did not think curries changed in the 80's or 90's in most places but for sure new establishments started to appear ie Pakistani as opposed to Indian and no doubt in reality Kashmir, Bengali, Balti etc).
nb they were never called Pakistani though - i think tandoori was popular.
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Great Thread guys and thanks CA for kicking it off in such detail. I was taken to the Ashoka by Charan Gill who introduced me to Sanjay Majhu who gave permission for the Chef to speak with me and show me the ropes. As mentioned on another thread I am now getting access to another shortly. Charan and the owner of the BIR I will visit later this month are Sikhs though not sure if their families come from the same part of India. Way back in the 70s many of the BIRs in Glasgow had the term INDO-PAK in their title though not sure you will find that anywhere today. The Shish Mahal opened in the early sixties and one of the great restaurants in Glasgow over the last 50 years and still a gem today cooked "the very beat of food in the classic Pakistani tradition" taken from the back of the book first published in 1982. Personally I would love to taste again the Chicken Buriani served with medium sauce that was my favourite from the Kohinoor across Gibson Street from the Shish Mahal. I suspect my taste buds and all the pointers from CA and others contribute to it being unlikely but it is a wonderful memory. Over the festive season I had some friends round for a curry night and cooked entirely from the Ashoka threads and my guests were delighted as I am with everything I got from the guys at The Quay. Cheers PP
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Hi
Jerry M, this goes to my point about history not ownership. Pakistan formation which included East Bengal in 1947, then Bangladeshi independence in 1955, leaves a long time between the two likely migrations to the UK .As for availability rationing went on long after the war Any new settler will try to some extent to create the food of his home land but is restricted to what is available. Curry houses I have used in the past that were owned and run by Bagladeshies did not eat from there own menu but Pakistani people would but only the starters. They used to do large mixed starter platers when asked YUM. Asked if they would do home style (Bengali) they would need 24 hrs to get things together (fish). Looking at Bengali traditional recipes leads me to consider that this possible second wave came into then almost took over the BIR trade.
Regards
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From personal experience I think the BIR's I have visited over the last few years have been trying to attract a new type of customer. Spices and heat seem to have been radically reduced which, in some instances, results in a bland dish when compared to those of earlier years. I believe this is to attract a new wave of customers who previously would have declared that they "don't like curry"
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commis, tempest63,
your para's pretty much sum it up for me. i'm happy with how it's all worked out - the eating experience has definitely improved for the better it's just harder to find it.
i can't believe that in the rush a little space on the menu could not have been saved for what a few of us clearly still love. i'd also hoped somewhere along the line to see the Bangladeshi chef following Gorden's rule (taste taste taste). that's progress though.
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That's because they are not showing you EVERYTHING they do. Confidence is one thing but to add to that....
It's just further proof of pre-organizing things into small parcels to be added later. Much simpler if you think about it? Annoying as heck though to anyone wanting to recreate the real McCoy however.
My Interest is increasingly directed to the two posts on what appears to be some sort of Chilli sauce. That and the Spice Mix. I really don't think the base has much to play in it and if people cook the base with too much in it then it does in fact become a stew right?
I had an odd thought some months ago. Why not precook the meat in the base sauce? ;)
I'll leave you with that thought.
i'd also hoped somewhere along the line to see the Bangladeshi chef following Gorden's rule (taste taste taste). that's progress though.
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I had an odd thought some months ago. Why not precook the meat in the base sauce? ;)
I'll leave you with that thought.
Kris dhillon already beat you to it. And I've been cooking my spuds in base sauce for years! (Go on Domi, I know you're bursting ;D )
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Lol I don't have any modern cooking books.
The reason I've never mentioned this before is that...... well...... There are veggy dishes too aren't there? I posted asking a question on why my chicken Vindy always tasted the same as my Lamb Vindy a few weeks back. I was kinda goading after I read that you put your tatties in the base. Again I didn't say anything on it.
It makes sense to me. It's a stew after all. ;)
Kris dhillon already beat you to it. And I've been cooking my spuds in base sauce for years! (Go on Domi, I know you're bursting ;D )
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Hi
What more can be said! SS your secret is finaly out and Mikka explained it in his own unique style.
By the way I think I just wet myself laughing.
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Actually Commis its more about pre-cooking the meat in a vat full of spices, oil and water right after the braising. That's what annoys me about precooking it in water and onions. I mean what's the point of wasting all of that goodness huh?
Anyone can laugh if they want of course. I think it's a goer at least to precook the meat. It makes complete sense, it flavours the base, the meat is precooked, aww heck wadda I know.... ;D
Hi
What more can be said! SS your secret is finaly out and Mikka explained it in his own unique style.
By the way I think I just wet myself laughing.
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Hi
Mikka I'm not laughing at you or the principle of pre cooking.It's the play on words, school boy humour.I'll let someone else explain.
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No worries. I've become rather well known for my writing technique ::) ;D
Hi
Mikka I'm not laughing at you or the principle of pre cooking.It's the play on words, school boy humour.I'll let someone else explain.
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Posted by DerekDhansak and moved to here by CA
This notion that BIR TAs are not as good as they used to be is B****ocks ! I have sniffed out loads of superb BIr up and down the country serving amazing food. Its always been good, and still is, if you go to the right restaurants, where they have passed down the tricks of the trade to new upcoming chefs. usually all from the same family i find. sure there are plenty of crap bir out there. but dont kidd yourself something is missing. The wow factor has probably gone because you have eaten so many darn curries in the last 20 years. lets face it, buying TAs was always more exciting when you were just starting out in life, all those years ago, and could only just afford one, once a week. now you can buy one any night , its bound to taste less exciting.
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Posted by Mikka and moved to here by CA
Derek:
I'm inclined to agree with you on that as regards memory of what you ate before and standards. I get incredible food here, no lie. Yes some cook differently but 20% are fantastic. The rest? Well we know about them don't we.
Anyway I'm enjoying learning and trying new things as always. Life's a journey and so is good food and friends.
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Posted by DerekDhansak and moved to here by CA
I have sniffed out loads of superb BIr up and down the country serving amazing food. Its always been good, and still is
Hi DD,
I agree with you that there are still BIRs which produce curries as good (and the same tasting) as those of yesteryear....up until 2005, at least, which is when I was last in the UK...I can't say, for sure, how things may have changed since then.
Any chance that you good provide a list of these "superb BIRs" you have "sniffed out" for the benefit of other members here (e.g. SS) who clearly feel they can't get a decent BIR curries (like those of the 80s) anymore? Perhaps they could then try them and give us their verdict too?
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Every town or city has a few great BIR. just trust your nose, literally. if you walk in and its busy, and has the smell, then try it out with ordering a madras. Compare a few madras from different TAs in the same town. i guarantee one will stand out as leagues above the rest. I would do a list but cant remember many non local ones. And from experience i find 1 in 6 BIR are actually very good. so its not rocket science. tip: always buy the madras on thursday night.
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i have been eating curries for 20 yrs, i stay in Glasgow , Scotland , and the curry taste and flavour depends on which place you eat out at, but the taste of curries in and around the city centre has remained the same, not much has changed.
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Off topic posts moved to here: http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4189.msg37982#msg37982 by CA (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4189.msg37982#msg37982)
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i have been eating curries for 20 yrs, i stay in Glasgow , Scotland , and the curry taste and flavour depends on which place you eat out at, but the taste of curries in and around the city centre has remained the same, not much has changed.
I presume, therefore, that you are not in a position to say if the curries of the past 20 years (in Glasgow) are comparable to those before, say, 1990, but you believe they haven't changed since then?