Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Blondie on April 26, 2005, 03:52 PM
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Hi All,
I am going through a stage of frustration at not getting "THE TASTE" again and wondered if it would help everybody if we all tried to describe "THE TASTE".
Of course the taste will be different for different people, but if wine boffins can describe tastes why can't we?
To me the taste is a mixture of oniony (raw) aniseedy, Mustardy and almost vinegary (but this vinegary taste could be something like lemon and another ingredient mixed). The Sort of smokey taste that sometimes gets a mention is only present from one of my locals.
I do hope someone else can describe the taste better than I have been able to but we need to start somewhere.
Cheers all,
Blondie
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The other day I decided to save a small amount of my takeaway bought vindaloo sauce and gave it a taste test in the cold light of day to see if I could identify any particular flavours.
It’s very strange stuff indeed! Even though the curry is very tasty and full of flavour, it is at the same time very subtly flavoured. It tastes sort of tomatoey without tasting of tomatoes, hot without tasting of chilli powder, sort of curry like but without tasting of curry powder. In fact it’s almost as if they use a completely different set of ingredients – I’m absolutely sure they don’t, but that’s how it tastes. It also had what I would describe as a slightly smoky, aniseedy, liquoricey underlying taste.
In fact I recently had a curry from the same takeaway and that definitely had aniseed in it. I could tell because it was as if the aniseed spice hadn’t all been finely ground and a larger than usual piece found it way into the dish. The trouble is I couldn’t tell if came from the curry or the pilau rice.
Liquorice and aniseed powders are available, so I wonder if maybe they could be a ingredient in the gravy?
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In fact I recently had a curry from the same takeaway and that definitely had aniseed in it. I could tell because it was as if the aniseed spice hadn?t all been finely ground and a larger than usual piece found it way into the dish. The trouble is I couldn?t tell if came from the curry or the pilau rice.
That could be fennel seeds in the pilau rice?
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Definitely smoky taste from all the local takeways around Oxford.
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Definitely smoky taste from all the local takeways around Oxford.
Has anyone tried black salt? I read that this spice has a smokey flavour. It might be worth a try at only 95p a jar. Please see:
http://www.natco-online.com/acatalog/Spices_N_to_Z.html
"Kala Namak (Black Salt) It is a purplish brown colored rock salt, with a DISTINCTIVE FLAVOUR. A special type of Indian mineral salt and has a very special SMOKEY FLAVOUR."
I added the capitals for emphasis.
Regards
George
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Hi everyone
I've had meals from three takeaways in my area - let's call them A. B and C.
'A' tastes little different from a well-cooked Kris Dillon. I've only had it a couple of times.
'B' is better than 'A', with some kind of X-factor, similar to the taste (from what I can tell) described by Blondie. But it's nowhere near as good as 'C', which all my friends agree is the benchmark by which all local takeaways are measured!
The nearest I can get to describing C's special factor (and I've tried many times, talking to the spice man at my local market) is:
A combination of smell and taste somewhere between smoke and toffee.
This factor seems to be present in all their dishes including Sag Bhaji and even Onion Bhaji, as well as all the classic meat and veg curries. When I open the front door of my flat and the guy is standing there with the bags, the smell hits me straight away. When I stagger into the kitchen at the end of the evening to get another beer, the smell is still there from the empty containers even though I've eaten and smelled the curry all evening.
This has lead me up two garden paths in the past. I've tried substituting pimenton for paprika in the base sauce, on the basis that it's smoked.
It was 'orrible, and went straight down the sink! :D
To me, butter ghee smells of toffee. I tried that, but it seemed to make little difference in the finished dish. I abandoned it on the basis that the next mornig the ghee in the leftovers had become opaque, which is not the case with leftovers from the takeaway - it still looks like transparent red oil.
At the moment I'm experimenting with saving the oil from my curries in a jar, so when i get enough I can use it in my next base sauce. Given that my most recent curries are 'tweaked' Dillon ones, I'm surprised to find that when I open the jar to have a sniff it does have a hint of 'that smell' - just not as strongly.
Ian
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Hi Ian,
I am glad at last that someone is listening and trying out what I suggested weeks ago. You will find that the more oil you take from curries you have made, the more that smell/aroma will appear apparent when put back into a jar or bottle to use next time. It gets more definate each time. Well, done and don't forget to post your findings!
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The nearest I can get to describing C's special factor (and I've tried many times, talking to the spice man at my local market) is:
A combination of smell and taste somewhere between smoke and toffee.
You will get a smokey kind of flavour if you brown some finely chopped garlic at the start. I use two cloves per serving. It mustn't be too finely chopped and you have to be careful not to burn the garlic as it will just give a bitter taste. It's a fine line between the very well browned garlic I'm talking about and being burnt, so it takes a bit of care. This doesn't work with puree. You should try this if you haven't already.
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You will find that the more oil you take from curries you have made, the more that smell/aroma will appear apparent when put back into a jar or bottle to use next time
Hi, curryqueen, I've been saving oil and reusing it for the next curry.? Done that three times now, and it gives a definite boost to the curry.? But restaurants have the advantage of cooking an assortment of dishes every night.? When I made Curry King's Rest. Style Khalia, the oil took on a fennel flavor.? Last night I made grimmo's Sag Baji, and the oil really took on a turmeric flavor.? It seems to overreact to the dish of the night, and I suppose that affects the next curry.
-Mary?
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Hi Yellow Fingers
Yes, I have tried browning garlic several times, thanks to the advice on this site :). Despite me being pretty sure I've browned it just right according to Pete's descriptions (Dark caramel colour, not golden, and not quite Nescafe brown) I'm pretty sure it's not the factor I'm looking for. Though it does add a nice taste and smell of its own, I agree!
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It tastes sort of tomatoey without tasting of tomatoes,
hot without tasting of chilli powder,
sort of curry like but without tasting of curry powder.
slightly smoky, aniseedy, liquoricey underlying taste.?
I thought the above quote was absolutely brilliant.
The only other thing I would add is that this flavour does not taste straight away.
When I have compared sauces I made, to bought curries, I found that initially there was little difference.
But after about two seconds the extra flavour becomes apparent
This taste seems almost separate to the curry
Sorry, folks, but I believe this taste to be the chicken jelly stock.
I spoke to someone who worked as a waiter in an indian restaurant for six months.
There really was a degree of secrecy over preparations of the curries.
But when you work for that length of times you can't fail to see things.
Think of what we've all reported from ten minutes in the kitchen!!
This person used to puree the garlic and ginger as one of the tasks but mainly just got the orders and took the meals to tables.
Apart from always seeing the large pot of curry gravy cooking they saw this other pot regularly.
Guess what it was full of?
Sorry, but it WAS chicken bones and water.
They said that they believed the finished curry gravy NOT to be vegetarian.
The recent times that I have added this stock I thought I really had finally captured the mouth feel of a restaurant curry.
To tell the truth, I found making the stock, quite distressing.
I am a closet vegetarian and boiling chicken bones do not smell pleasant.
I usually buy vege curries.
If you make a chicken curry at home you can get pretty close to what you want.
I had been failing because there was no chicken in my home made vege curries.
And you do need it to get a similar restaurant curry.
Now I know what's in the base, I may actually stop buying from takeaways.
Sad eh?
I can actually distinguish this flavour in my bought curries.
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I asked my local restaurant owner about chicken stock and he denied it immediately, 'I wouldn't be able to do vegetarian curries' he said. Obviously most BIR's would say this, if news got out there would be a scandal, not to mention a drop in trade from vegies! Luckily both me and the missus are carnivores
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The chicken stock/jelly is something I must try on my next cook-up. Pete, do you think it's essential to actually just use the jelly from the top of the cooled stock? I'm just thinking about the waste....
As I understand it (and I might well be wrong) it was usual for curry houses in the early days to cook their chicken by boiling it on the bone and then stripping the meat. Using jelly as a by-product would make sense in that case, and it could have carried on to the present day when it was established that it's part of the taste...
I don't want to fuel any 'conspiricy theory' thoughts here, but something funny did happen a couple of weeks ago when I was at a takeaway late one night. The kitchen wasn't open plan, but the door to it was wide open and wedged with a door-stop. "Great", I thought, "they don't mind people seeing into the kitchen". I propped myself up against the counter and had a look. I could see right down the length of the prep surfaces and the hobs were clearly in view.
One of the chefs caught my eye, and I smiled, but no response. Then there were a few words exchanged, and one or two others looked at me, so I looked away. I gave it a minute and then tried to watch again - I saw the Chicken Tikka being pulled out of the fridge, on the skewer in whole breast-sized pieces, and cut up into smaller pieces before being added to the pan. I saw two large pots on the stove... and then one of the staff called the guy at the counter in. More words exchanged, more glances at me - and then the guy took the doorstop away and closed the kitchen door!
The thing is, one of the large pots obviously contained the base sauce, as I saw it being used. But the other pot, which had no lid, had clouds of steam belching out of the top. In my experience base sauce doesn't steam that heavily, even when you're boiling it. But something much more watery - like chicken stock being prepared for the next day at a rolling boil - would, wouldn't it?
A friend of mine is a strict veggie, and a fan of restaurant 'C'. He'll certainly want to know if theiir curries contain chicken stock. I'll get him to ask if his next curry is suitable for vegetarians.
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Hi Ian S,
I am not with one camp or the other either for or against chicken stock being used in the base sauce, but I do feel sorry for veggies as this would be totally against thier beliefs.
What I would add may add weight to the discussion but you can make up your own minds.
One takeaway owner I spoke to recently promissed me that they buy in whole chickens, remove what they need, and throw away the rest (I personally find the fact that any restaurant would throw anything that can be hard to believe). I also spoke to a partner in a company who now supply restaurants/takeaways and they said they sell chickn breasts frozen in 10kg blocks to the trade, I know this to be true because a friend bought a batch as they said (at a very good price).
I personally don't think that they throw anything away, but, the stories add up to there not being Chicken stock in the base, but as we know stories are stories and you can believe what you want to.
One thing I feel I should say, & it is disagreement that I had with my veggie daughter some years ago. Where do you think british chip shops cook the fish? correct. Where do you think they cook the Chicken? Correct. And where do you think they cook the chips? correct.
As far as I know they do not have a seperate fryer which takes into account the veggies, sorry veggies, but no more chips, and in my oppinoin if you are a real veggie you shouldn't be eating fish anyway.
Cheers all,
Blondie
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The chip shops around my way have a seperate fryer for things like chicken and chicken nuggets :)
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Hi Blondie,
you are correct about frozen chicken breast being used by the restaurants, a Bengali friend used to own the Fareham Tandoori near Portsmouth and i have been in the kitchens and seen the frozen blocks of chicken breast myself.
He told me this was the most cost affective way of buying chicken with no actual waste, he also told me that other restaurants were buying from the same supplier.
I was also told that in that in the very early days of Indian restaurants they used boiler chicken which is basically a very old hen and of course although very cheap to buy the meat was very tough so the whole chickens along with all the ingredients were cooked for hours to tendarise the meat, the onions were not chopped they were left whole and gradually fell apart with the long cooking process.
After hours of boiling the chef then had the task of blending the onions and in those days it was done with a hand blender, the meat was then just picked off the carcuss ready for use.
Jon.
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The chicken stock/jelly is something I must try on my next cook-up.? Pete, do you think it's essential to actually just use the jelly from the top of the cooled stock? I'm just thinking about the waste....
I made some of this chicken jelly two weeks ago.
This time I just used chicken bones and rubbish bits, which I got for nothing from a butcher shop.
I followed the below recipe
After straining and cooling I was very surprised that everything but the oil turned to this jelly.
There was no waste at all.
This was probably because there was a greater proportion of bones this time.
I had to do it.
I had to know.
And I was so upset that it was right.
There is nothing wrong with making a stock, and I suspected for a long time that the base sauce was not vegetarian.
But the smell of boiling this is disgusting.
The first couple of hours are worst.
It has put me off because I do have strong vegetarian tendencies.
But once you know the finished taste and smell, you can distinguish it in the bought curries.
It's as individual as fenugreek.
The revised recipe:-
This is the chicken jelly recipe
Here is what you do:-
Chicken bones and bits (wings & scraps, I filled half a three? litre pot)
Then? add 4 black cardomons
8 green cardomons,
8 bayleaves
2 long cinnamon sticks,
1 teaspoon peppercorns
1 teaspoon salt
and? 2 tablespoons of vegetable oil.
Put in enough water to half cover the chicken bones.
I warn you , it really doesn't smell nice.
I thought it would be unusable because of it's smell.
I cooked it on very low for about four hours.
Any meat takes on a string like quality.
Then I strained it and left it to cool.
The jelly that you get is what you use.
It is surprisingly very un spicy.
Almost like chicken crisps with a hint of bay leaves.
I added this to my curry gravy and boiled for another ten minutes to dissolve.
It works out about half a tablespoon per curry portion.
The jelly keeps three days in a fridge or could be frozen
Most of my curries are veggy so the addition of this stock made a massive difference
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Hi Pete,
So are you saying that the boiled chicken jelly is definately present and is a missing taste in the BIR curry ?
And do we all go along with this AND CurryQueen's assertion that it is definately in the reused oil ?
If both of these are in fact true, I for one will never be able to replicate a BIR curry because I will not be boilling up chickens and won't reusee oil.
Thanks Pete & Curry Queen,
Blondie
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Hi Pete,
So are you saying that the boiled chicken jelly is definately present and is a missing taste in the BIR curry ?
And do we all go along with this AND CurryQueen's assertion that it is definately in the reused oil ?
If both of these are in fact true, I for one will never be able to replicate a BIR curry because I will not be boilling up chickens and won't reusee oil.
Thanks Pete & Curry Queen,
Blondie
I have seen the oil salvaged too.
I have been told by chefs that you can't do their curries exactly the same at home.
I thought they were being "difficult"
The truth is that in practical terms, it just isn't worth it.
How many hours can you dedicate to one meal?
I won't be doing the chicken bones stock anymore.
Re using oil could be dangerous too.
So I'm stopping that.
I have found out things that I wish I hadn't.
I will see if I can find alternatives to create what I want.
But I believe unless you use these methods you can't exactly duplicate a BIR.
Believe me, I would love someone to prove me wrong.
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I have found out things that I wish I hadn't.
Good work, Pete.? But I have to say,? this is all very depressing.?
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Hey - chin up, guys. :)
Pete - you found what you were looking for through sheer commitment and determination, and that's a massive achievement in itself - even if you don't like what you found. I'm not a veggie, but I feel squeamish about the chicken bone jelly too. I've got to try it once for myself, but after that I agree - it's awfully time consuming for the sake of home cooking and it does sound unpleasant.
Everyone, think about what Pete's given us here. If this is a major factor (and I only say 'if' because I need to try it for myself - I'm not doubting Pete's word) then we've all got somewhere to start in terms of finding an alternative - which I certainly intend to try and do. What's more, there's somewhere concrete to start, and we can maybe talk about replacing these flavours to other experienced chefs who may not be as guarded as some BIR chefs. It's a whole new project.
Hope I'm not speaking out of turn.
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Im just going to bung 4 chicken stock cubes into my base sauce
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I will see if I can find alternatives to create what I want.
One of the main ingredients of any stock, whether it is of the cube variety or whether it was lovingly home made like yours is the dreaded MSG. So if you aren't going to use the chicken stock then perhaps just a few pinches of MSG will add something?
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One of the main ingredients of any stock, whether it is of the cube variety or whether it was lovingly home made like yours is the dreaded MSG. So if you aren't going to use the chicken stock then perhaps just a few pinches of MSG will add something?
Hi Yellow Fingers,
I don't understand this statement, how can a home made stock have MSG in it unless we put it there?
Sorry if I have missunderstood you, but please could you clarify for me,
Cheers Yellow Fingers,
Blondie
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I'm going to call my sister who has been veggie for most of her life but loves BIR curry(always prawn, or veg). I will report back to the site on her reaction when I tell her that the curries she eats almost certainly contains stock made from boiled chicken carcasses.
Maybe a few others could do the same, as I think it would be quite interesting.
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I don't understand this statement, how can a home made stock have MSG in it unless we put it there?
All meat has MSG in it naturally. Roasting meat increases the amount of MSG but boiling as for a stock will also impart the MSG into the stock. This is partly why stocks are so tasty!
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Re: My post above.
Just asked my veggie curry loving sister about the chicken stock. and she said that she loves BIR curry so much it wont bother her and wont make any difference to her buying in restaurants and take-aways.
Good news..........
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Has anyone gone to a BIR that calls itself a "vegetarian restaurant" -- where no meat at all?is served?? Do their curries have "the flavor"?? If not, curry-jelly sure sounds like the answer.? Also, if the owner or chef is a practicing vegetarian, he might be more likely to rat on the competition that uses curry-jelly.?
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Has anyone gone to a BIR that calls itself a "vegetarian restaurant" -- where no meat at all?is served?? Do their curries have "the flavor"?? If not, curry-jelly sure sounds like the answer.? Also, if the owner or chef is a practicing vegetarian, he might be more likely to rat on the competition that uses curry-jelly.?
I don't want to be the sole informant on this issue, but I used to go to "poppadoms" radford road, nottingham.
That used to be a vegetarian restaurant.
Although some of the curries had a gravy, they never had the taste.
Anyone else been to one?
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Has anyone gone to a BIR that calls itself a "vegetarian restaurant" -- where no meat at all is served? Do their curries have "the flavor"?
I've been to two restaurants in a street full of Indian vegetarian places near Euston Station in London. Their food is excellent but I consider it more like the 'authentic' Indian food you get in India - it's nothing like BIR food, in my opinion.
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Has anyone tried just adding a teaspoon or two of sugar to sweeten up their curry does that help create the taste?
I am currently moving home so cooking is off for me at the mo, but when i get to my new place I'll be back and with gas to cook on i can't wait.
S 8)
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Hi Admin,
I have used sugar once or twice to add a little extra sweetness when the base wasn't sweet enough, but, I find that if the onions are fried with a little salt at the start of making the base there is plenty of sweetness without sugar.
Hope this helps.
cheers Admin,
Blondie
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Sugar has never helped my curries I'm afraid.
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I've started using it - about 1/2 to 1 teapsoon in a curry for one. It definately imprvoves the dish I find. When Mark J saw curries being cooked at his local, they used about this amount, and it is the method he describes that I've been using to cook with over the last week - easily the best curries I've ever made.
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Any curries that are described as sweet the BIR's will add sugar, for example the pathia I saw was described as hot sweet and sour, 1 TSP sugar per portion
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Sugar has not taste whatsoever. Sweetness from sugar is a sensation, not a taste.
Sorry, I have to give my honest opinion.
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That is being pedantic about definitions tho. Many BIR curries are a bit sweet - and adding sugar makes things sweet. I visitied my favourite ever Indian on the weekendfor the first time in a while, and was surprised at how sweet it was. I'd just not really thought about it or noticed it before.
A different issue from the toffee taste tho, certainly.
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Mridula Baljekar's Northern Curry Sauce Base uses some sugar and a lot of dried fenureek leaves.? I don't know anything about her or her recipes... but you can scroll down to Northern and look at it:
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones/ufdi/faqrec/cursau.html.
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Any curry that has as part of its description 'sweet' in a BIR is simply adding sugar
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I know topic has moved on a bit, but a local takeaway near me has the most beautiful "smokey" smell when you enter. It took me a while to place it, but it turns out it is black cardomoms ...lovely - my jar of these is over 5 years old and still they are very pungent when slit open...
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I know topic has moved on a bit
Fear not, you will find every single thread on here nearly always goes on to a disscussion about "The Taste"? 8)
By no means a bad thing tho? ;D
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I know topic has moved on a bit, but a local takeaway near me has the most beautiful "smokey" smell when you enter.? It took me a while to place it, but it turns out it is black cardomoms ...lovely? - my jar of these is over 5 years old and still they are very pungent when slit open...
Indeed, black cardomans are the soure of the smokey taste. However, we are still struggling to find the correct way to use them in order to get the smokey smell into out curries!
My new line of research is that the flavouring picked up by the meat during its cooking is vital to the flavouring and aroma of the dish it is in. Tomorrow when I cook my meat in the stadnard way (oil, small amount of liquid, cook on low heat covered with some spices), I am going to overload on two things - cassia bark and black cardomanns. I hit on something today with my curry and I need to pin down what it was.
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I am going to overload on two things - cassia bark and black cardomanns. I hit on something today with my curry and I need to pin down what it was.
Black cardomons are a very important ingredient but I have overdone it with them a few times and got something quite disgusting.
More than two in a meal, and you can be in trouble.
If you smell them uncooked they have an almost medicinal aroma.
Almost like TCP.
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But surely the BIR's dont use an ingredient like black cardamom, apart from possibly in the base?
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Many recipes just specify 'cardamons' without saying whether they mean green, black or any other colour. It's not good enough! I'm sure I've got it wrong before now, when I guess which type seems most appropriate.
Regards
George
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But surely the BIR's dont use an ingredient like black cardamom, apart from possibly in the base?
I think some curry houses must be using them somewhere, as the place reeks of them in the nicest way. I can only think they are used in the cooking of the meat...?
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Hi Thomashenry,
Most of the curry houses in this area don't have the smokey taste, but the one that has a very definite smokey taste definitely has the taste in the sauce even without meat etc being added. So in this case I wouldn't say that the smokey taste come from only the main ingredients but comes from the sauce as well.
Just my twopenn'th,
Blondie
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I was reliably informed a while ago that black cardamoms are used when precooking lamb but not chicken or prawn.
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But surely the BIR's dont use an ingredient like black cardamom, apart from possibly in the base?
If I remember correctly, Kris Dhillon puts them in her garam masala, and then uses that garam masala in almost every curry.? ?
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Garam Masala is a really different spice.
In more ways than one.
Compare the Rajah and East End versions.
They are nothing alike.
East End is really nutmeggy.
Keep them out of you curries, they add nothing restaurant to them.
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This search is driving me round the bend.
I went out again trying to get information
I'm afraid I got nothing new.
There was a takeaway that had recently changed management.
As I approached there was the initial curry gravy smell.
It's the same as we all make.
The spicy,oily, boiled onion aroma.
I know we've all got that right.
Then the second smell hit me.
The really nice one.
The one that's in the curry
The one we can't get.
So I went in and spoke to the chap behind the counter.
And, as I did, the manager came out wiping his mouth.
I said "I'm sorry to trouble you, but what is that amazing cooking smell?"
He replied "that's all the food cooking"
So I said that I made curry gravy and tried to cook like a takeaway and I couldn't get the same result.
He then asked what I put in the gravy and he started to rattle off the spices we have all tried:-
Coriander,Cummin,Turmeric,Chilli,Bay leaves,Cinnamon Sticks,Green Cardamon.
He really emphasised Black Cardamon.
He said that I wasn't bringing out the full flavour of the spices.It is to do with timing and temperature.
I said I would like to pay for lessons.
He then clammed up.
"Too busy" he said
I smiled and thanked him anyhow and went home.
So I heated up a small pan of oil really hot.
I then added some crushed black cardamons and cinammon sticks to see if I could duplicate that wonderful aroma.
Instead I stunk out the kitchen something rotten.
Mark J if you are reading this then please see the offered demo of curry gravy, and find out WHAT is making the smell which leads inevitably to the "taste".
Please
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I agree it is becoming difficult to stay motivated (i will get somewere after the summer season is over , sorry end of September people !! as it is really rude to ask as they are busy down here now). ;)
The chef in my local is fond of Beer i will bribe him with several creates end of the season !!! ;D ;D
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I think maybe u should cook and then walk away outside then walk back in I can smell the same as a takeaway
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Mark J if you are reading this then please see the offered demo of curry gravy, and find out WHAT is making the smell which leads inevitably to the "taste".
Hi Pete,
I will watch this guy prepare his base at some point but unfortunately he does it at 4 pm and that makes it tricky for me to get there due to work. Maybe when I am next on holiday!
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Garam Masala is a really different spice.
In more ways than one.
Compare the Rajah and East End versions.
They are nothing alike.
You can sometimes learn quite a lot by looking at the list of ingredients which manufacturers are forced to print on labels. But Noon and other Indian chilled food producers can get away with minimal disclosure under the heading of garam masala. It could, of course, contain almost anything.
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Perhaps we are looking/buying from the wrong place,ever thought about catering suppliers ( they wont answer e-mails inquiring about purchasing their products, weird eh ??).
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We have all experimented with all the available spices oils and ghees.
We know loads of good recipes for the gravy
We know about the browning garlic ginger (which some places put into the gravy)
We know about chicken stock.
We know about precooked ingredients
I don't believe that their is something we could not have accidentally come across.
The only thing they do that we don't, is use the tandoor.
Everything else we have.
That wonderful smell must come from cooking the chicken or lamb.
Probably the kebabs
I can't see it being anything else.
It's such a strong smell
Has anyone ever tried making Kebabs?
Seekh kebab is in Kris Dhillons book
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Sorry but when i buy several dishes from my local not everything is smelling the same, the specific taste /smell from the Vindalloo/Tindalloo is a little bit in the Bombay alloo as well but not in other dishes,this week I'm going to order a Madras,Vindalloo see how different they are, the kebabs are different (nice though) but don't have the same smell.
Pete you seem very frustrated don't lose heart mate !!!
I really believe the trick is now in the second stage,we`ve concentrated on base mixes long enough here ,what we have is a good non descriptive base that will make a whole variety of Curries now its time for the Vindalloo recipe itself.
Anyone else brave enough to ask their local !!!
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I still say the Kd recipe is very close it`s just missing that elusive smell/taste & it would be 100% accurate, & i have to be honest i got further by my experiments at home than anything else ( been very close in the past !!). ;D ;D ;D
Perhaps i should sit back like many members & non members & let Simone else do all the hard work.
255 members here & less than 20 or so active as they should be >:( if that offends anybody... BIG DEAL !!!
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I went back to a restaurant where they are helpfull.
That wonderful aroma was all in the air
The one we want in our curries
"what is that incredible smell" I asked and I got a straight answer.
He said it is from the tandoor.
I suggested that it was kebabs but he said it was TANDOORI CHICKEN.
I think the only way to prove anything now is to buy a tandoor.
I have looked on the internet and they seem to be about ?400-?500
That's a lot of money.
With something that smells that strong it really would get into everything around.
I think the curry gravy simply absorbs the smell by being left, without a lid on, and exposed to it for hours.
What do you all reckon?
If I got one then I think I would have to cook in my shed.
I would like my house smelling like that, but my family would object!
Mad aren't they?
I asked a few other questions too.
"Do you add chicken stock to your curry gravy?"
He said no but if any extra chicken flavour is used, it comes from Maggi powdered chicken soup.
"what do you precook your meat and veg in?"
He anwered oil and salt.
He is a really lovely, helpful man and I am certain everthing he said was completely truthful
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I cant believe that the tandoor would actually flavour dishes cooked near it! Surely not
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Nor can i you crazy people :P :P.
Think about this will you.
This margin for error & the size of the batch etc..etc..
I have made the same Curry time & time again..Yes with different results ( Small batch, small margin for error etc...).
But & this is my point. No matter the variation of the same dish you new it was the same recipe
with slight variations ON THE SAME THEME !!!
To copy my local bir i need to get something like it to taste something like it, i now strongly believe that
1 The Take-away recipe is very simple( Economics & Time again !!).
2 The base gravy will more than likely be made with no particular dominating flavors so it can
make all the Curry based dishes.
3 There is a small number of ingredients in the final dish & i am not using them all yet.
4. I am also coming to the conclusion that no oil is used in the base gravy( most of you will disagree i know) but whats the
point of oil in the base gravy.This conclusion is brought about by the fact that my local BIR Curry has a really light oil taste & subtle Curry flavor,r & after cooking the oil twice it turns out the wrong colour !!! MY local is a more golden oil (like Blondies !!).
So it is either cooked on low heat or without oil in first stage.
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Actually you might have a good point on the oil quantity and its perceived importance.
There is a local BIR I often use which has a very watery sauce (little oil) but the dish is fantastic.
Many others I use definately have loads more oil, but equally have the taste.
I'm coming round to the view then that it doesn't really matter how much oil, but I've not made the leap that says 'no oil'..yet.
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I had an idea the other day, but it might be utterly stupid. The trouble is, it's burning a hole in my head, so I've got to tell someone (and who better than you lot?! :)).
I've always thought that the overpowering smell in restaurants came from the tandoor. And I've thought that the bought curries I like best have this aroma about them. The puzzle being, that we know meat for the plain curries (i.e. not chicken tikka vindaloo) isn't cooked in the tandoor. It's impractical.
We know that at least some restaurants/takeaways use a chicken stock in their bases. Pete's seen something added to his dish which he was told was 'balti paste' but which he now thinks - on reflection - might have been chicken jelly. So (takes deep breath and waits for howls of laughter):
Is there any reason, d'you think, why some kitchens might make a chicken stock...
...from chicken cooked in the tandoor?
Somebody said here (sorry, can't remember who) that stock made from roasted chicken was richer because the bones caramalised on the oven. Somebody else said that the tandoor meat was cooked during the day, as the temperature of the oven needed to be lowered for breads and kebabs during the evening. So if there was unsold tandoori chicken in the fridge at the end of the day, could it end up in next day's stock?
Or have I just boiled my brain with home-cooked vindaloos each day for the past week?! :D
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Does anybody know if tandors have drip trays to catch the cooking juices. If so, these juices would give a smoky flavor to any gravy base to which they were added.
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Blimey, first Pete reckons it could be tandoori smell infusing into the base and now Ian S reckons they are using tandoori bones for the curry gravy!. You'll be telling us next that they re-use the bones from customers left over tandoori chicken? :D
I'm open minded but I think we're stretching the limits of possibility here.
Dylan, no the tandoors don't have drip trays.
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Pick up a black cardomann pod. Put it to youir nose and smell it. THAT is the smokey smell. I just can't figure a way to get it into the dish!
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You could add a couple of slightly opened black pods when you precook your main ingredients or what i used to do was sling a couple in when cooking the base and pull em out before blending. Although I would say theres no big difference in using them or not.
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I just went and had a good sniff of my little tub of black cardamoms. It's a lovely smell but it's not anything like I've ever smelled in a finished curry. But the smell is coming from the husk of the cardamom, so if that's what you want I suggest you grind a few to a powder, probably without the seeds and sprinkle that into your curry at the very last moment. Or, try briefly frying the same powder in oil so as not to burn it and then mix it through your finished curry once it's off the heat. This is the tarka method, usually used in tarka dhall.
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I reckon you could get a smoky/charcoal type (like a tandoor) by shoving some halved onions on a skewer and cooking them on the barbecue. Then use these onions to make the curry base. Sounds a bit eccentric but might be worth a try. Next time ive got the barbie fired up...
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Hi Thomashenry,
I know that some of us are in areas where some ingredients are difficult to find, but my local asian store sells packets of Ground Black Cardamom (either Rajah or East End I can't remember which).? As I have said before only one of my local BIRs has a smokey taste, but just by way of experiment I will try some of the ground black cardamom and see what it produces by way of the smokey taste.
I have experimented in a simillar way with different ingredients that have an aniseedy taste (ie fennel, star anise etc) because my favourite BIR definately has that taste but I can't reproduce it.
cheers all,
Blondie
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To me, black cardamom tastes of eucalyptus methyl cough sweets. Having said that, I usually add a couple to my batch of base sauce. Can't say it's done much for the flavor, though.
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I have experimented in a simillar way with different ingredients that have an aniseedy taste (ie fennel, star anise etc) because my favourite BIR definately has that taste but I can't reproduce it.
A book I had some years ago used celeriac in the base. At the time I thought it wasn't a good idea so never tried it, but celeriac has a very aniseedy flavour so perhaps this is what you need.
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think this may help !
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=19810&item=4384500234&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V
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To me, black cardamom tastes of eucalyptus methyl cough sweets. Having said that, I usually add a couple to my batch of base sauce. Can't say it's done much for the flavor, though.
Yeah, I'ver been there as well - it does nothing, Like you said.
Regarding what you say about the smell of black cardomanns - the seeds don't smell the same as a the husk (as someon pointed out above. If you drind BCs, you get a mdeciinal deep heat type aroma, coming from the very strongly scented seeds. This overpowers the smell of the husks, which is what I am after.
I've tried just about everything to harness the smell of the BC husk, but failed.
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I have found Star Anise in 1 portion of Vindalloo.
Yes Dylan you`ve got it mate they smell of cough sweets.
yes the frustration is showing " i wonder if they use freshly ground aliens to get the taste" Come on people !!!
Some of the final dishes posted on this site that come from the chefs themselves Are of a very low quality & if that makes you happy then so be it .
None of the final Vindalloo dishes(the one`s ive tried) on this site are anything near the dish served up by my local,i believe its just some ingredients missing in the final dish.
The base gravy ?on this site has made a huge difference to my Curries !!
? ?Thankyou all !!!
It seems desperation is showing i`ve got an idea ( Not the first to think of this ) WHY NOT GET DOWN TO YOUR LOCAL TAKE-AWAY & ASK SOME QUESTIONS !!!! ;)
I Remember somebody on this forum saying if we all just went down to our local BIR & ask one question each we`d get some answers.
So what`s stopping you....
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Hi all,
the ground black cardamom I mentioned earlier is East End and is either just the husk or the whole cardamom. It has a very smokey smell and taste (just like cigarette butts to me, but I don't smoke). The "powder" is quite sort of hairy / fibrous if you know what i mean.
Hope this helps the people who are trying to make thier curries taste of fags.
Cheers all,
Blondie
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A curry that tastes of fags!!!! ( you have made me smile again Blondie !!! ;D ;D ;D ;D)
There all crazy people on this forum :P :P :P :P
When you mean fags you don't mean the 2 legged variety, coz thats cannibalism & illegal you know ;D ;D ;D
I don't think its Black Cardamons either.
But i do like the crazy shit thats being posted lately, go on people & then some !!!! :P :P ::) ::)
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Everything cooked in the restaurants is derived from traditional indian cooking.
That information is all there
I don't think there is a special way to cook black cardomons to bring out a different flavour.
You either fry, boil or both.
We've done that.
Atually, I did try incinerating them last Sunday, too.
The smell has nearly gone
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I reckon you could get a smoky/charcoal type (like a tandoor) by shoving some halved onions on a skewer and cooking them on the barbecue. Then use these onions to make the curry base. Sounds a bit eccentric but might be worth a try. Next time ive got the barbie fired up...
I think this is the most plausible idea so far. If the curry houses pre-cook their onions on a skewer in the tandoor there would be a double effect. The onions would burn very slightly and the tandoor smoke would infuse into them, both giving a smokey flavour. If these are then used in the base, or are perhaps used for the very well fried onions added at later stages I'm sure this would have the desired effect. It certainly would be no real extra effort for the chefs. Perhaps those of you who have contacts could find out if this is normal practice?
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Yes, that does seem possible, something from the tandoor is getting in the base, somehow.
I was looking at some tandoor recipes and, it seems a commonplace thing, for a piece of onion to be stuck on the end of the meat skewers.
This stops the kebabs or tandoori chicken falling off into the bottom of the tandoor.
Maybe this cooked,juice laden onion ends up in the base?
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Sorry guys, but the constant exposure to spices has cooked your brains. I'll bite my k*ob if this has any bearing on BIRs
:)
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Sorry guys, but the constant exposure to spices has cooked your brains. I'll bite my k*ob if this has any bearing on BIRs
:)
I'm tempted to do a tour of my local curry houses until I find one that cooks the onions this way just so I can video your contortions.? I should be able to sell the vid and get a tandoor.? :D
Anyhow I didn't say that this was what they did, I just proposed the most plausible possible method out of some of the weird ideas we've had recently to get this smoky flavour inrto the curry. Personally I can't even relate to this smoky smell/flavour that some people are talking about. I think it takes us back to the 'describe the taste' thread. It's almost impossible to do. One persons' smoky might be another persons bitter for example! A weak example but you get the idea.
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Actually Blade if you let us video you bite your k**b off ( Yellow Fingers "lights ,Camera, Action !!) we could sell it on ebay & buy our own Take-away from the proceeds ;)
Blade you are crazier than a shit house rat !! ( RESPECT GOES OUT TO YOU ..... YOU BLOODY LUNATIC !!!). ;D ;D ;D
Just think Blade if you hang around your local Indian for a few hours your k**b may acquire the taste ;D ;D ;D
Oh & order me a testicle Tindalloo while your there !! ( sorry in advance ...but i cant help myself) ;D ;D
If its silliness... I'm your man..Regards yours Darth.... ;D ;D ;D
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Following the converstation I had with a chef, I bought the said Maggi packet chicken soup.
He said any extra chicken flavour came from this soup.
None was in the base though.
Here is a list of ingredients:-
wheat flour
iodised salt
skimmed milk
chicken meat
chicken fat
onions
natural identical chicken flavour (I really like that one!!)
flavour enhancers:- monosodium glutamate,diosodium inosinate & diosodium guanylate
spices:- turmeric,rosemary,bay leaves
traces of celery
This stuff sounds good enough to eat!
And it's surprising how many things we have actually ended up putting in our curry gravy anyhow.
(even celery!)
I won't be using it til next weekend, but will report back
Going back to the tandoor flavour debate
You will clearly get a tandoor flavour in your chicken tikka masala, as the chicken was cooked in the tandoor, but I don't get why it's in even the veg and dhall curries?
I mean, if we don't agree that something from the tandoor goes in the gravy, what else could be in it?
We don't have any other theories knocking about except for the black cardomons idea.
Is this a dead end?
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He said any extra chicken flavour came from this soup.
I can't imagine under what conditions 'extra' chicken flavour would be needed?
You will clearly get a tandoor flavour in your chicken tikka masala, as the chicken was cooked in the tandoor, but I don't get why it's in even the veg and dhall curries?
The only other idea I can think of is that perhaps some tikka marinade is fiercely fried at the start of making the final curry. I can't imagine it giving a smoky flavour, but who knows? Kris Dhillon suggests putting a teaspoon of tikka marinade in her madras recipe.
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Onion and garlic tarka is my vote for the taste, im going to try it out