Topic: Describe "The Taste"

[pete]

It tastes sort of tomatoey without tasting of tomatoes,
hot without tasting of chilli powder,
sort of curry like but without tasting of curry powder.
slightly smoky, aniseedy, liquoricey underlying taste.?

I thought the above quote was absolutely brilliant.
The only other thing I would add is that this flavour does not taste straight away.
When I have compared sauces I made, to bought curries, I found that initially there was little difference.
But after about two seconds the extra flavour becomes apparent
This taste seems almost separate to the curry
Sorry, folks, but I believe this taste to be the chicken jelly stock.
I spoke to someone who worked as a waiter in an indian restaurant for six months.
There really was a degree of secrecy over preparations of the curries.
But when you work for that length of times you can't fail to see things.
Think of what we've all reported from ten minutes in the kitchen!!
This person used to puree the garlic and ginger as one of the tasks but mainly just got the orders and took the meals to tables.
Apart from always seeing the large pot of curry gravy cooking they saw this other pot regularly.
Guess what it was full of?
Sorry, but it WAS chicken bones and water.
They said that they believed the finished curry gravy NOT to be vegetarian.
The recent times that I have added this stock I thought I really had finally captured the mouth feel of a restaurant curry.
To tell the truth, I found making the stock, quite distressing.
I am a closet vegetarian and boiling chicken bones do not smell pleasant.
I usually buy vege curries.
If you make a chicken curry at home you can get pretty close to what you want.
I had been failing because there was no chicken in my home made vege curries.
And you do need it to get a similar restaurant curry.
Now I know what's in the base, I may actually stop buying from takeaways.
Sad eh?
I can actually distinguish this flavour in my bought curries.

 

[Mark J]

I asked my local restaurant owner about chicken stock and he denied it immediately, 'I wouldn't be able to do vegetarian curries' he said. Obviously most BIR's would say this, if news got out there would be a scandal, not to mention a drop in trade from vegies! Luckily both me and the missus are carnivores

[Ian S.]

The chicken stock/jelly is something I must try on my next cook-up.  Pete, do you think it's essential to actually just use the jelly from the top of the cooled stock? I'm just thinking about the waste....

As I understand it (and I might well be wrong) it was usual for curry houses in the early days to cook their chicken by boiling it on the bone and then stripping the meat.  Using jelly as a by-product would make sense in that case, and it could have carried on to the present day when it was established that it's part of the taste...

I don't want to fuel any 'conspiricy theory' thoughts here, but something funny did happen a couple of weeks ago when I was at a takeaway late one night.  The kitchen wasn't open plan, but the door to it was wide open and wedged with a door-stop.  "Great", I thought, "they don't mind people seeing into the kitchen". I propped myself up against the counter and had a look.  I could see right down the length of the prep surfaces and the hobs were clearly in view.

One of the chefs caught my eye, and I smiled, but no response.  Then there were a few words exchanged, and one or two others looked at me, so I looked away. I gave it a minute and then tried to watch again - I saw the Chicken Tikka being pulled out of the fridge, on the skewer in whole  breast-sized pieces, and cut up into smaller pieces before being added to the pan.  I saw two large pots on the stove... and then one of the staff called the guy at the counter in.  More words exchanged, more glances at me - and then the guy took the doorstop away and closed the kitchen door!

The thing is, one of the large pots obviously contained the base sauce, as I saw it being used.  But the other pot, which had no lid, had clouds of steam belching out of the top.  In my experience base sauce doesn't steam that heavily, even when you're boiling it.  But something much more watery - like chicken stock being prepared for the next day at a rolling boil - would, wouldn't it?

A friend of mine  is a strict veggie, and a fan of restaurant 'C'.  He'll certainly want to know if theiir curries contain chicken stock.  I'll get him to ask if his next curry is suitable for vegetarians.

[Blondie]

Hi Ian S,

I am not with one camp or the other either for or against chicken stock being used in the base sauce, but I do feel sorry for veggies as this would  be totally against thier beliefs.

What I would add may add weight to the discussion but you can make up your own minds.

One takeaway owner I spoke to recently promissed me that they buy in whole chickens, remove what they need, and throw away the rest (I personally find the fact that any restaurant would throw anything that can be hard to believe). I also spoke to a partner in a company who now supply restaurants/takeaways and they said they sell chickn breasts frozen in 10kg blocks to the trade, I know this to be true because a friend bought a batch as they said (at a very good price).

I personally don't think that they throw anything away, but, the stories add up to there not being Chicken stock in the base, but as we know stories are stories and you can believe what you want to.

One thing I feel I should say, & it is disagreement that I had with my veggie daughter some years ago.  Where do you think british chip shops cook the fish? correct. Where do you think they cook the Chicken? Correct. And where do you think they cook the chips? correct.

As far as I know they do not have a seperate fryer which takes into account the veggies, sorry veggies, but no more chips, and in my oppinoin if you are a real veggie you shouldn't be eating fish anyway.

Cheers all,

Blondie

[Mark J]

The chip shops around my way have a seperate fryer for things like chicken and chicken nuggets 

[Jon]

Hi Blondie,

you are correct about frozen chicken breast being used by the restaurants, a Bengali friend used to own the Fareham Tandoori near Portsmouth and i have been in the kitchens and seen the frozen blocks of chicken breast myself.
He told me this was the most cost affective way of buying chicken with no actual waste, he also told me that other restaurants were buying from the same supplier.

I was also told that in that in the very early days of Indian restaurants they used boiler chicken which is basically a very old hen and of course although very cheap to buy the meat was very tough so the whole chickens along with all the ingredients were cooked for hours to tendarise the meat, the onions were not chopped they were left whole and gradually fell apart with the long cooking process.

After hours of boiling the chef then had the task of blending the onions and in those days it was done with a hand blender, the meat was then just picked off the carcuss ready for use.

Jon.

[pete]

The chicken stock/jelly is something I must try on my next cook-up.? Pete, do you think it's essential to actually just use the jelly from the top of the cooled stock? I'm just thinking about the waste....

I made some of this chicken jelly two weeks ago.
This time I just used chicken bones and rubbish bits, which I got for nothing from a butcher shop.
I followed the below recipe
After straining and cooling I was very surprised that everything but the oil turned to this jelly.
There was no waste at all.
This was probably because there was a greater proportion of bones this time.
I had to do it.
I had to know.
And I was so upset that it was right.
There is nothing wrong with making a stock, and I suspected for a long time that the base sauce was not vegetarian.
But the smell of boiling this is disgusting.
The first couple of hours are worst.
It has put me off because I do have strong vegetarian tendencies.
But once you know the finished taste and smell, you can distinguish it in the bought curries.
It's as individual as fenugreek.

The revised recipe:-

This is the chicken jelly recipe
Here is what you do:-
Chicken bones and bits (wings & scraps, I filled half a three? litre pot)
Then? add 4 black cardomons
8 green cardomons,
8 bayleaves
2 long cinnamon sticks,
1 teaspoon peppercorns
1 teaspoon salt
and? 2 tablespoons of vegetable oil.

Put in enough water to half cover the chicken bones.
I warn you , it really doesn't smell nice.
I thought it would be unusable because of it's smell.
I cooked it on very low for about four hours.
Any meat takes on a string like quality.
Then I strained it and left it to cool.
The jelly that you get is what you use.
It is surprisingly very un spicy.
Almost like chicken crisps with a hint of bay leaves.
I added this to my curry gravy and boiled for another ten minutes to dissolve.
It works out about half a tablespoon per curry portion.
The jelly keeps three days in a fridge or could be frozen
Most of my curries are veggy so the addition of this stock made a massive difference

[Blondie]

Hi Pete,

So are you saying that the boiled chicken jelly is definately present and is a missing taste in the BIR curry ?

And do we all go along with this AND CurryQueen's assertion that it is definately in the reused oil ?

If both of these are in fact true, I for one will never be able to replicate a BIR curry because I will not be boilling up chickens and won't reusee oil.

Thanks Pete & Curry Queen,

Blondie

[pete]

Hi Pete,

So are you saying that the boiled chicken jelly is definately present and is a missing taste in the BIR curry ?

And do we all go along with this AND CurryQueen's assertion that it is definately in the reused oil ?

If both of these are in fact true, I for one will never be able to replicate a BIR curry because I will not be boilling up chickens and won't reusee oil.

Thanks Pete & Curry Queen,

Blondie

I have seen the oil salvaged too.
I have been told by chefs that you can't do their curries exactly the same at home.
I thought they were being "difficult"
The truth is that in practical terms, it just isn't worth it.
How many hours can you dedicate to one meal?
I won't be doing the chicken bones stock anymore.
Re using oil could be dangerous too.
So I'm stopping that.
I have found out things that I wish I hadn't.
I will see if I can find alternatives to create what I want.
But I believe unless you use these methods you can't exactly duplicate a BIR.
Believe me, I would love someone to prove me wrong.

[merrybaker]

I have found out things that I wish I hadn't.

Good work, Pete.? But I have to say,? this is all very depressing.?