Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on January 07, 2015, 11:00 PM
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1st thought
has anyone compared bought packet ground and seed ground at home.
I've always used seed and ground it as and when needed thinking fresh is best.
just a thought but can't really see most BIR grinding their own given the amounts and effort needed.
question then comes - is there a difference in taste ie is packet ground needed or even "essential" to deliver BIR accurately.
2nd thought is cumin spicing taste of BIR.
when thinking of mix powder ingredients could you take all out with the exception of cumin.
or look at it another way make a mix powder without cumin and will it give BIR taste. take any other ingredient out and it probably will
does this sound potty. need a sanity check
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Hi Jerry,
Not sure I can add anything useful, except for that freshly ground is always best in my experience. If the takeaways and restaurants use bought in cumin powder (realistically yes I'm sure they will) then I'm sure they will choose a good brand, and get through it quickly (nothing stale). But then are you saying that to aspire to BIR food you should copy that and not bother grinding cumin seeds ?
Surely, it can be forgiven for us amateurs (with more time on our hands than the hectic work of a BIR chef) that we grind spices to achieve the best freshness. After all, without wanting to appear sexist or in any way racist, would the wives of the (mainly) Bangledishi chefs cook meals for their husbands with less flavour than necessary, or indeed said chefs being satisfied with less than perfect.
I say grind away.
Regarding leaving out Cumin from Mix Powder.... Personally I find it's essential for that earthy almost 'sweaty' flavour. I know you're not a fan of cumin, and use it minimally, but this goes to show how each of us has different tastes. The best Restaurant Madras I've tasted (and have you at the Hilal) was not to your taste, but for me was Utopia on a plate.
No Sanity Check required, just a case of personal preference. Good analytical post though, gets the intellectual juices flowing.
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For me, ground fenugreek seed is the key ingredient for re-creating the true BIR flavour, but I agree that ground cumin is also essential, and I invariably use more cumin than fenugreek, by a ratio of as much as 4:1
** Phil.
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Phil,
I agree that ground methi is the essence of curry. Hard to explain unless you have smelled it. But while we only use freshly-toasted and ground cumin, we rely on shop-bought ground methi because it is too tough and resistant to toast and grind in the electric coffee mills that we use. How do you prepare it in your kitchen?
Regards,
Tim
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Rsholme123,
I have taken my blinkers off for this years challenge. You will understand sort of what Im intending to do - that traditional madras on our last night out along with live madras and a strip down and reassemble is what I'm focused on. Hence the post and likely a few more apparent strange posts as I progress.
For info I've never bought powder cumin and given the comment will look out for a small Bag just to understand any difference.
Ps you should be packing
Phil,
Much appreciate this type of comment. I would not of otherwise of added to my list of unknowns - powdered fenugreek is 1 of a small no of ingredient I've binned. It just took me away from BIR. I think I used in CAs aka mix.
It's sort of fundamental to what I aim to do over the next year. In short on this say did I use too much
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Are you on Crack or something, Jerry?
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I don't taste the cumin from my mix power in my curries, but I definitely do in my chilli.
And re methi - I've mentioned this before - the aroma of dried methi leaf takes me right back to the curries of yesteryear.
But I've learned from forum members scattered here, there and everywhere that everyone has memories of their curries of yesteryear. Its just that there are so many regional differences that the chances of any 2 curries from different parts of the UK being the same seem vanishly small.
Anyway, vive la difference!
Apologies, Jerry, for being no help at all on the cumin question.
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I sneak a little extra ground fenugreek seeds when making base gravy and mixed powder. It's that aroma that's so appealing. As is methi leaves in the final dish fry.
I know you are striving for something Jerry, and I THINK I have a rough idea what direction you are headed in, but I can't help feeling you're pushing the envelope when said envelope is already almost completely full i.e. you may have reached 99.9% and trying to get further. Packing underway btw.
Garp... stop sniping.
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Sorry, wasn't meant to be a snipe - just a reasonable question based on Jerry's posts in this thread.
Ground fenugreek, as Phil said, is the singular most important ingredient when comparing BIR to traditional Indian cuisine IMO. To totally rule it out is ridiculous, again IMO.
No offence intended :)
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I agree that ground methi is the essence of curry. Hard to explain unless you have smelled it. But while we only use freshly-toasted and ground cumin, we rely on shop-bought ground methi because it is too tough and resistant to toast and grind in the electric coffee mills that we use. How do you prepare it in your kitchen?
I just use the pre-ground stuff, Tim. Although I have a reserved coffee grinder for use in grinding spices, I make no use of it when attempting to re-create BIR flavours at home. I think that one has to be realistic and accept that "your average BIR" (or even your good BIR that is not right at the top of the heap) is /very/ unlikely to grind the basic spices; it will make use of pre-ground, pre-packaged spices which it will get through so quickly that they will have little or no chance to deteriorate in storage.
** Phil.
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just checking what's being said here - ground fenugreek is key to BIR
I could see it being the otherway around ie for traditional.
If it is key would appreciate a qty that would be used in 300 ml portion.
Just to be clear I have no interest in traditional cooking - I see it purely as a learning opportunity.
my efforts this year being aimed at increasing my learning not pushing what I already know - which is what I've done so far and know won't work (best BIR being the target)
Given this "spicing" is key to what I intend doing I list what I think are BIR spices. Would appreciate views on what's missing. To be clear this is not about whole spices which I see as different - essentially I'm after mix powder spices:
1) cumin
2) coriander
3) turmeric
4) paprika
5) chilli
6) gm
7) ground fenugreek (big tbc)
8) curry powder
9)
Etc
Ps Naga- thoughts appreciated. Methi is certainly a yes but not convinced it's used in all dishes hence why I left it out. I'm essentially targeting base spicing. You are 100% right not to taste cumin coming through.
Methi is another question I have on my mind. I'm aiming 1 step at a time and see methi as next going down the pyramid.
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just checking what's being said here - ground fenugreek is key to BIR
I could see it being the otherway around ie for traditional. If it is key would appreciate a qty that would be used in 300 ml portion.
The very helpful Indian family who run my local convenience store have assured me that ground fenugreek plays no r
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Phil,
I can't pretend - I find this quite unique. To use methi in traditional and fenugreek seed powder in BIR. This goes completely against what I've found from trying both ingredients in the past - methi sits well in BIR 100% sure. I use methi as standard in some dishes and have grime to like it. I particularly like in tikka marinade per IFFU
On the fenugreek seed powder I may have used top much. I'm certainly up to give it another try.
I just need someone who uses it to say how they use it so I know how much should go in an individual portion of 300 ml base.
I can read up from my previous attempt to work out how much I used last time. But there is no point me guessing if someone already has the answer.
As I say for this year I'm happy to try out any ideas as I'm not putting it into what I normally do ie BIR. Im simple going to do some tasting trials.
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unless there are any comments going to use the following as my priority order for my intended spice tasting trials:
1) cumin
2) coriander
3) turmeric
4) paprika
5) chilli - no work needed
6) gm
7) ground fenugreek (big tbc)
8 ) curry powder
9) methi
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I put about two teaspoons in a 1.6 litre base, Jerry. I'll let you do the calculation.
But I also add it to my mix powder :)
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Garp
Many thanks for info which I will try.
Any chance of same for mix powder.
What I'd like to get to is how much in relation to cumin ie 1 tsp cumin : 0.0 tsp fenugreek seed powder.
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What I'd like to get to is how much in relation to cumin ie 1 tsp cumin : 0.0 tsp fenugreek seed powder.
For me : 2 teaspoons cumin to 1/2 teaspoon fenugreek, or to 1 teaspoon fenugreek at most.
** Phil.
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Garp... stop sniping.
Well said RS ;D ;D
You were on the right path Professor JM
Ground Fenugreek seed is a secondary spice in Traditional Indian cooking.
and has little use in BIR cooking and further more freshly ground seeds gives off hardly any aroma at all.
To say it is the essence of BIR curry is simply rubbish. ::)
The Fenugreek seed powder is a strong bitter spice so use it sparingly, too much will ruin a curry
and also give you gas and possibly the runs. whoopdeedoo! ;D ;D
On the other hand many authentic BIR/TA recipes call for Kasuri Methi, (dried Fenugreek leaf)
which is why its part of the chef's worktop (mise en place) spices.
Kasuri Methi used to be added to the majority of savoury curry dishes.
But not so much now in The Modern BIR's, because its overpowering,
but it is still a major part of the aroma of BIR, new and old.
Getting back to Cumin, it is a primary spice and is the culprit for Pakistani Restaurant
curries often having that same background flavour, across the range of their dishes.
Grinding your own spice masala is much fresher, obviously, but you have to moderate
your recipe as its always too pungent for the English palate.
My two pennies in, hope it helps
cheers Chewy
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I have never known qsoori methi to be overpowering. Surely it has quite a subtle, earthy flavour.
And I didn't mean that ground methi is a key ingredient in BIR. In fact I don't think I have seen a chef use it, except perhaps in their mix powder. All I mean is that if you smell the stuff it has an incredible aroma which just shouts curry. I buy about 200g of it a year and add 2 tsp of it per 15 litres of gravy. I would use more, but despite the fact that it smells amazing, it carries a bitter flavour and I haven't found a way around that.
As I keep getting pulled up on the detailed wording of my posts I need to a) stop posting or b) run it past a proof-reading team first. Think I'll go for a), all things considered. I prefer the company of enthusiasts to pedants.
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Don't do a), Mac. There are people on here who think they know everything, despite having a very narrow view of what constitutes BIR. Stay and give your opinions from a person who works in the business.
Some of us are enthusiasts and can see through the constant criticism of others' efforts, and attempts to belittle anything outside their personal preferences.
Anyway, fenugreek....
I love the flavour of both the dried leaves and the powdered seeds. Punjabi cuisine is what I am used to and both have contributed to my attempts to make BIR/TA-style dishes. Perhaps if others have blinkers on, and rule this style of BIR out completely, then they have to broaden their horizons and lose their prejudice.
Keep cooking and posting, Mac.
Je Suis Charlie
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Thanks Garp for the kind words. Tough week here in France with emotions running high and I am probably being too touchy.
Tim
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loving this post! Cumin is nothing without it's friends.
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Garp,
I know nothing of punjabi. My gut feeling is that most members are in same boat.
upping our understanding might be worth pondering. I'd certainly be interested.
For example Is there any websites that would give that 1 st step of understanding
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Phil,
Many thanks - noted try 2tsp cumin to 0.5 tsp fenugreek
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Chewytikka,
Many thanks for your words On fenugreek - appreciated.
Been tasting cumin all afternoon and very much see it as the culprit in Pakistani food. I must admit though it's taken some time but I know realise how important it is in BIR. in making IFFU mix for his staff curry (8 coriander, 1 cumin I think from memory) I realised my perception was wrong but it was only after visiting a traditional place just before Xmas that I realised why.
Can I push you just a little further on methi - should it go in base - I think no just like it should not go in mix either
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Has anybody seen/used/got a mix powder recipe from an actual BIR chef with ground fenugreek seed in it? I thought it was more a traditional Indian ingredient but I'd be intrigued to try it if anyone can authenticate it's use in TAs.
Not posted for a while. Happy New Year to all.
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I ain't no expert Jerry, but I believe that Methi should not be used in base or mix powder, However if you watch Dip's vid's (which I can't find at the minute), He always adds methi when cooking his final curry,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0zEG5-1Nk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zv0zEG5-1Nk)
PS, found one. methi added at 0:15
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Phil, Many thanks - noted try 2tsp cumin to 0.5 tsp fenugreek
Or, as in this recipe (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12535.msg101714.html#msg101714), at a ratio of 2:1, but note that this recipe also includes a large number of other spices so the overall effects of both cumin and fenugreek will be diluted.
** Phil.
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Les,
The dip video takes me back to when he 1st put them out. I'm big fan of dipuraja although I never could decide if he really cooks "all in" during service. His tikka is my no 3 and I still make his biryani rice.
The methi is what I use in quite a few dishes and like the difference it makes. Curry2go mogul being my fav methi dish. I don't like in some dishes though.
The thought on putting in base came from observation made from making tikka - I forgot to put in on a make and found a huge drop in taste.
I've never put in base and never seen (I think) a base recipe calling for it.
I'm happy to keep adding at dish fry unless any member has used successfully in base.
Phil,
That is the crux of it - what you say and why I will give it another try - overall effect diluted by the collective spice balance.
I can't say I'm not sceptical of the fenugreek benefit or use in bangladeshi BIR. Until I try I'll never put my mind at rest.
Best wishes