Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on December 24, 2014, 11:53 PM
-
How do best BIR do it
I've posted this question before. This came of it:
1) heat destroys flavour - I've cut back on base time from 3 hrs to ~2 hrs. I aim to undercook at dish fry
2) clarity of taste - aim to add ingredients only once (not that easy but worth keeping in mind)
3) fresh is best - speaks for itself
4) recipe refinement - small differences to key ingredients more critical than a complete set of ingredients
I'm still a long way short though.
Current focus is on how to get a better understanding of how spices work - what they bring to the curry
An example being how much turmeric in base - what's the optimum or envelope. Is it better in base or at dish fry.
Very quickly the picture becomes too big and not workable ie trial and error would take too much effort.
Any thoughts would be appreciated on all 3 questions:
1) how do best BIR do it
2) will "optimum" spicing make a difference
3) how best to explore spicing
-
I have had to re assess everything, after I had my BIR cooking lesson with Adey
I mean, there I was bringing back curries which dis satisfied me, but were fine by everybody else who tasted them
I went on the course because I wasn't totally happy with my BIR cooking
and I came back not being happy with someone else's BIR cooking
I think we are actually achieving our goal but can't appreciate it
You could chase this forever but never arrive
I would guess that you have already got exactly what you want Jerry, but don't know it
I think your taste and smell are ruined for days after a few hours of exposure to spices, onions and garlic
I have watched gravy and curries cooked in takeaways so many times
We are doing it right
And there are the videos to watch again and again
I bet I would think your curries are fantastic Jerry
I would like some of us perfectionists to get together for a curry reality check
I can't see any other way forward
-
Give 3 or 4 people the same ingredients for any dish - let alone curry - and you will come up with all of them tasting differently.
Interesting one talking to my mate on this very theme some years ago & citing exactly above and our respective wives making spag bog - yet they come up completely different. He then went on to say how he could never get his parsley sauce to taste like his grans - never tasted of parsley - no matter how much parsley he laced it with. I watched Jamie (or was it Rick?) recently who made a passing comment about parsley sauce - leave the addition of the parsley to right at the end of the process - it is so aromatic that you can drive off this flavour when added too early. He's tried it and it now works ok for him !!
It is this kind of precise knowledge that the very good Asian chefs have to enable them to bring out the best from the various combinations - knowing just how much & when / how to add that makes their dishes 'special'. Sadly, i don't have this flair / feel for spices - wish I had. I am an ex analytical chemist turned concrete technologist - specialising in chemical additives for all cement systems. I have this flair for additives in my game - wish I could develop it into spices for asian cuisine. Who knows if / when I retire ( i am beyond that age of 65 & still working) I may take it more seriously & apply myself to it.
-
Ghoulie/Haldi,
you both up there as my fav posters.
yes for sure i'm more than happy with curries produced (this site has taught me well). more and more BIR's disappoint just showing how i and the site have journeyed. i'm starting to question myself - am i comparing what i like too much or just being too critical.
trouble is i have perfect example. ellesmerport is not a place i know. it has for me 2 restaurants. one that thinks its brill (really nice decor) and 1 that thinks customer. the latter has what i call curry pedigree. my wife like's the 1st. what i would call a modern BIR. so its no wonder they get lots of customer.
do i need to search for best becomes a difficult question. i like my pizza and brewing beer is what i did in 73 and now realise the technology needed is within my means.
its worth me adding a bit more detail behind the post.
what "best" BIR means. its easier to say what's not:
1) you don't need chip shop on way home (had 1 on tuesday)
2) the manger wont tell you his restaurant is best
3) it won't have a perception of Michelin star
what it will have is much more difficult to describe. so many TA are pretty good and almost there.
1) it will be Bangladeshi
2) it will have been in business since say 1970
3) it will be proud of its food
4) it wont cost an arm and leg to eat
i do accept most members wont even have this on their radar.
these are the things that set the best apart:
1) clarity of taste
2) a balance of spice
3) use of fresh ingredients that lift the dish beyond the norm
4) use of quality meat (its the spice that matters)
there are very few "best" though. i'd say in warrington 1 in 30 outlets. even my local BIR restaurant is not best so you really have to keep your blinkers off.
as for a reality check i'm 100% in favour. ive sort of tried to do this this year (met say 6 members) and have been impressed how good it's been. talking the talk posting has its limitations.
so far i guess on the reality check:
1) Haldi
2) Ghoulie
who else become very difficult - who has that passion for the curry
ps for anyone who knows warrington i would put the cottage as best (very expensive and perhaps losing it). it would be interesting in this day and age what say trip adviser puts as no 1. ive recently been to 2 off that supposedly fared well only to dissapoint (with the exception of using real coconut in CTM).
i'll try and put down my current thoughts on how im currently thinking of moving forward.
ps i dont see this as a quick journey - say 10 yr. the important thing is to satart
-
You're too kind JerryM. All I know is that I recognise a good original taste when I meet it.
I have been spoiled by living / working in the Middle East - Dubai based and travelled all over from there for work / holidays - '76 to '84 (and been back since to visit old eating haunts). The food in Dubai is exceptional - you name it - it is there & costing from next to nothing to an arm and a leg. I have also been to India - stayed at the Taj in Bombay - '78!! I have had better Indian (& Pakistani food) in Dubai than Bombay.
Nothing disappoints me more than a BIR menu here in UK that reads as if they know what they are doing - only to find the same base sauce tweaked for every dish presented. I only go once.
Interesting dish in Dubais Khyber Restaurant is their 'Special Veg' - very specific taste which I could never 'christen'. Eating in Rusholme many many years later with my wife and we had a side dish that we both tasted - looked at each other - and both said Khyber 'Special Veg' ! Looking at the description - I would say the taste was down to the use of mustard seed.
JerryM - your mention of brewing beer brought back many old happy memories. My dad used to brew his own - he had a very good home brew as good as his beloved Worthington Pale Ale. He was at it when they insisted you had a licence to brew home stuff (he didn't!). So I got married ('68)- skint - couldn't afford the pub - so I brewed my own - and soon was experimenting to make all sorts - including a 14% proofer!! Kicked the back of your throat that one! My favourite tipple was Newcastle Brown - so I tried doing it & got pretty close to that special nutty taste - achieved by floating the yeast on toast to percolate through the toast to then ferment. Chesters Mild was a request from a mate - easy peasy - use burnt malt.
-
Yesterday I made the effort to remove some "older" leftovers that had become resident in the back of the fridge after having all sorts of Christmas fare poked in front of them. The vegetable and chicken curries had decided to perform metamorphosis into unrecognisable new species, but surprisingly the small portion of leftover Lamb Rogan Josh provided the wonderful aroma of a perfect curry as soon as the lid was off.
Although there was no need for me to taste it, I did, and I'd even go so far as to say it was good. For safety reasons I tossed it in the bin anyway, but I can say that having not eaten a curry of any type for well over a week, the aroma and flavour of a good dish was certainly there. Even cold and old it smelled great and tasted fine.
I think that anyone who has cooked with passion and commitment to a style, has oft times found there own dishes wanting, while others who eat them truly appreciate just how good they are. I almost always enjoy my curry dishes much more after a day or two of maturation, and for some it is essential. Lamb and beef dishes just don't fully develop immediately in my opinion.
Nothing disappoints me more than a BIR menu here in UK that reads as if they know what they are doing - only to find the same base sauce tweaked for every dish presented. I only go once.
This is an interesting thing to say. A lot of what I've found in my research tells me that BIR is exactly that.
-
what it will have is much more difficult to describe. so many TA are pretty good and almost there.
1) it will be Bangladeshi
2) it will have been in business since say 1970
3) it will be proud of its food
4) it wont cost an arm and leg to eat
ok
lets start completely from nothing
Can you make a madras or vindaloo that are like the above?
-
For safety reasons I tossed it in the bin anyway ...
Madness. I eats anything that doesn't climb out of the 'fridge by itself !
** Phil.
-
So much other food at this time there was just no room for it. I was actually surprised to find it was still in good condition compared to the other dishes cooked on the same day.
-
what it will have is much more difficult to describe. so many TA are pretty good and almost there.
1) it will be Bangladeshi
I'm surprised, Jerry, that you believe there are no good Punjabi restaurants......
-
First curry I ever tasted was in a place called the Taj, Altrincham - run by an ex Gurkha & it was brilliant - 1963. He was pretty good at karate - sorted out the drunks late on in the evening who fancied their chances at having a go at the 'little Indian fella' or 'not paying'.
-
First curry I ever tasted was in a place called the Taj, Altrincham - run by an ex Gurkha & it was brilliant - 1963. He was pretty good at karate - sorted out the drunks late on in the evening who fancied their chances at having a go at the 'little Indian fella' or 'not paying'.
Such a tale warms the cockles of my heart. We had a similarly skilled owner of the Lotus Inn in Chislehurst, but his skills were very rarely needed because they had an excellent policy of informing any would-be dinner who seemed likely to cause trouble that, very regretfully, they were full, and perhaps said would-be diner might like to try the Maharaja just down the road ...
** Phil.
-
m8 of mine was on night sentry duty in Malaysia - mid 1950s. stood on the edge of a ridge facing pitch black jungle. Suddenly felt hands feeling his boots / laces - then nothing! It was a Gurkha night patrol - seems they knew exactly what Brit boots / lace patterns were - or he was a goner!
-
Haldi,
lets start completely from nothing - Can you make a madras or vindaloo that are like the above?
It's a No. I guess in a nutshell that's my problem. I've racked my brain and spice seems to be the only thing left.
Garp,
My experience of curry is pretty narrow - I know the midlands and north west. I don't know of Punjabi. The Bangladeshi comment comes from trying curry in Manchester and Bradford which I associate with Pakistani. I know my knowledge must have gaps as Balti is Pakistani yet very different from whats outside the triangle. If punjabi can produce best then quite happy. It's only how they do it I want to learn
Ghoulie,
If I ever get to beer I know who to contact. Pale ale eh
-
The work ive already done says I won't find the answer in tweaking what i know of BIR
In short the idea is to Understand how individual spices affect the overall taste
ideas so far:
1) take livo's madras to basics and build it back up
2) try out the spice part of traditional recipes (using chrisnw website)
3) use baggar to try out spice combinations
These are just ideas. Hence the post. I've really got my blinkers off on this and appreciate any thoughts.
I'd convinced myself on spice as it's what I know least about yet realise how important it is.
-
Jerry, what's your take on chewytikkas madras. For me it hits all the buttons. I follow it exactly. 3 hour base, mix powder, madras recipe. I cannot fault it. It has the old school madras flavour I've been striving to replicate for years. The cooking technique is a key factor in getting it just right. I'm Newcastle based so the regional differences could be a factor. I've been cooking it for 2 years now. It stands up against restaurant madras's easily.
-
Jerry, what's your take on chewytikkas madras. For me it hits all the buttons. I follow it exactly. 3 hour base, mix powder, madras recipe. I cannot fault it. It has the old school madras flavour I've been striving to replicate for years. The cooking technique is a key factor in getting it just right. I'm Newcastle based so the regional differences could be a factor. I've been cooking it for 2 years now. It stands up against restaurant madras's easily.
I've also done chewys Madras and base, defo a regional thing as I dont rate it atall.
-
I've racked my brain and spice seems to be the only thing left.
I feel very sorry for you and can identify completely
That's pretty much how I feel about things
I should be able to make a curry that tastes right by now
I 've tried the chewy recipes
The takeaways round here definitely don't use worcester sauce in their madras, and worcester sauce is a very strong flavour
Just over 10 years ago I spent 50 pounds on some "genuine" curry recipes from the internet with guaranteed results
The madras/vindaloo, from those recipes, had worcester sauce in
So the idea of worcester sauce was not new to me
It fills a flavour "gap" but it's not what I find missing
I must admit that Chewy's madras tastes incredibly good, if it's left two days in the fridge
Why's that?
Is it right, but I can't tell at the time, or is is it some sort of maturing process?
If it's the latter, then that does still lead a few avenues of possibilities to explore
I know that takeaways don't always use fresh curry gravy
It's kept in the fridge, and a required quantity is taken out for the evening's use
So it's not new
Maybe even three days old
Jerry, you mention the spice mix
The spice mix is important
You can use the desired amount of chilli you want with no detrimental affect on the curry, but if you use too much spice you will ruin it completely
The same goes for too much fenugreek and tomato puree
I still reckon the base should have all the flavour, or the potential of flavour, you are chasing
I made the JB base a few months back and it had that missing flavour
I've not made it as good as that, twice
I think it's to do with how I cooked the garlic tarka
Too easy to overcook, so I consider technique really is important
I'm talking about a 5 second accuracy on this particular stage
A couple of months ago a takeaway chef was letting me watch him cook my curry
He did the "superheat" bit for about four minutes
He kept tasting the boiling curry, waiting for the flavour to change
That's pretty important information
Some sort of a change happens to the sauce
Maybe you can also take it beyond this flavour too, and ruin it
What really bugs me is spending 10 hours preparing something that isn't perfect
Some people have clearly reached their BIR goal
It was desperation that made me go on the Adey course
I wanted to join the elite
I can't believe that even the curries, he made didn't taste "right" to me
Jerry,maybe there's something wrong with our sense of taste?
It's been going on so long, I can't see an end
Just endless experiments
-
Had a curry @ 6 months ago at one of my local favourites - Jai Kathmandu (nepalese) on Palatine Road, Northenden. When you order their Veg Pillau Rice - it comes with a basic curry sauce as a separate item - you can order it any strength you want. I usually leave it as a basic curry. This particular night, the curry sauce didn't arrive with the dish - so I pointed this out to Govinder - the old guy who delivers most of the food. He muttered something about the kitchen forgot and off he went. 5 minutes later he was back with the curry sauce by which time we had no real need for it other than to take home - but my wife & I dipped our plain naan bread in for a taster. It was absolutely delicious - far better than usual - very very tasty, spicy but not hot. When Govinder cleared up, I asked him who made the sauce. He replied - he did, chef too busy! I must see if he will open up on his particular take on a curry sauce - he never usually cooks as far as i know - but he clearly has the 'knack'.
The main chef here is absolutely brilliant and you can tell when he is on duty (Thursdays usually). The guys tell me he has worked all over as a professional chef - including for the Oberoi hotel chain.
-
Working in Bahrain - '76 - used to overlap into the nightshift to make sure transition was ok. We had the task of completing 2 houses for Dec 2nd National Day. Pretty hectic time in that period with a lot of overtime being worked - so i went into Isa Town to get a load of tikkas, naans & curry sauce to placate the workers. Absolutely brilliant stuff from a hole in the wall outlet. Went there many times after too. The locals reckoned the curry pot was never emptied - just on the go 24 / 7 - very busy place.
-
Daveyham,
Appreciate your words. Am too big fan of chewytikka. I have looked at the madras recipe but not made - felt it was too close to what I'd already tried - perhaps I should (i have base at mo).
The nearest I've got is the zeera madras.
The spice question is something I feel uneasy about. It goes across everything. The amounts I use from the site work. I just don't know if slight tweaks will make a difference - and that troubles me.
Turmeric was the example I gave but it goes on
2) how much Cinnamom in bunjarra
3) chef garam in base
4) akhini spices
5) mix powder
Haldi,
Many thanks for kind words. I am happy. I guess like yourself I know something is not quite right. This only shows up in curry dishes ie not cream or complex dishes ie jalfrezi where you don't rely on the curry for the primary taste.
It could be as you say and my ongoing recipe refinement will sort via the examples you give ie methi, puree etc.
I've have noticed that some mix powders seem more suited to these curry dishes. Perhaps I need to work on using 2 types.
The other good point that you and Ghoulie make - the hands on the pan. I know this makes huge difference. A local TA I used for years was no go on Monday nights as the tandoori chef cooked. Very good but short of the little fellow with lifetime cooking expertise.
We are not mad just a bit more picky than Joe public. If you've not tasted you won't miss. Just had TA tonight that fills the place no trouble - I'm glad I'm cooking myself tomorrow. It's simply a measure of how far we have traveled.
Maybe it will need a meet up.
Trouble is it's such a massive subject that finding answers to our particular needs not easy to uncover - I think what BE meant when he said he could not help just lay out a map to follow.
The spice journey is something I think I can do in my spare time - when the mood takes. Hence I will go ahead and post if I get anywhere.
-
I think we are actually achieving our goal but can't appreciate it
You could chase this forever but never arrive
I would guess that you have already got exactly what you want Jerry, but don't know it
I bet I would think your curries are fantastic Jerry
I would like some of us perfectionists to get together for a curry reality check
I can't see any other way forward
I think that you have hit the nail on the head haldi.
If you are passionate about your curries (like lots of people on this site) and spend years perfecting them you have probably already reached a point where you have perfected them.
You know when you've cracked it when you serve them to friends and they tell you that they taste as good as or even better than their takeaway/restaurant curry.
Even when you know that your curries are spot on you still keep searching for ways to perfect them because we are perfectionists.
Why not do a Curry Come Dine with Me in your local area with other curry lovers from the site?
You could foot the bill (including or not drinks) for a curry night at your place and invite 3 other curry loving couples around. The following weeks you go around to theirs and they do the same. You could then award each other points on their curries (we did this by sending them to an independent person) We did this when we lived in Spain and it was a great way to meet up, swap recipes, etc. We even had a small trophy made up for the winner.
Anyone in the Leeds area and interested in doing a Curry Come Dine with Me?
-
You know when you've cracked it when you serve them to friends and they tell you that they taste as good as or even better than their takeaway/restaurant curry.
I disagree. Most friends are too kind to say anything else.
Why not do a Curry Come Dine with Me in your local area with other curry lovers from the site?
You probably wouldn't know but I proposed a near-identical idea here a few years ago. I agree it would be a great way of establishing the position. At the time, my suggestion was debated and we even drew up a map to plot likely groupings for regional get-togethers. But it never happened. Most people seem to prefer to maintain their cyber-identities, rather than cross into the real world. Another example was a couple of years ago when 3 of us met in London and had a most enjoyable evening. But why wasn't there more like 30 people? In that sense, the turnout and level of interest was pathetic.
-
I disagree. Most friends are too kind to say anything else.
In that you case you need to tell your friends to be really honest or why not buy a takeaway curry and make your own curry and put them in two identical containers then ask them to try them. You really know you've cracked it when they say yours is the best ;)
You probably wouldn't know but I proposed a near-identical idea here a few years ago.
Sorry George I missed that one. I've been a member since 2009 but normally I just sit quietly in the sidelines not daring to venture in to the dark side.
It's a shame that it didn't work when you tried it out, I suppose everyones got busy lives and it's sometimes hard to organise something like this or maybe there just isn't enough interest :'(
-
Sorry George I missed that one. I've been a member since 2009 but normally I just sit quietly in the sidelines not daring to venture in to the dark side. It's a shame that it didn't work when you tried it out, I suppose everyones got busy lives and it's sometimes hard to organise something like this or maybe there just isn't enough interest :'(
I think that (regarding the "Dine with me" proposal) that there is another problem, and that is that some of us may feel intimidated by the sheer professionalism of some of our peers. If I were to offer a "Come dine with me" experience chez Taylor, then I might manage (at best) an onion bhaji starter, a Madras chicken with pulao rice and one vegetable dish (mushroom or potato), a Mango lassi to wash it down with, and that would be about it. But it is quite clear from the reports of our most active members that that would pale into insignificance compared to what they could offer, with probably eight to twelve dishes in total. So unless I could be confident that those who elected to dine with me (and to offer their hospitality in return) would be happy with such a limited offering, and would reciprocate in kind, then I would be very unlikely to want to take part ...
But the "let's eat together" with George and Michael.T went very well indeed, and I would be keen to repeat that experience, hopefully with more like-minded members next time. Vijay (http://vijayrestaurant.co.uk/)'s in Willesden Lane, Kilburn, has been mooted as a possible venue; any interest ?
-
Very interesting thread this.
I believe you come to your own conclusions after experimenting for years taking in consideration all your curry experiences over that time,I have cooked a curry in two separate takeaways plus had a days tuition in a Indian restaurant kitchen that specialise in 'traditional' style curry's that are made using very finely chopped onions and tomatoes to create the curry sauce/gravy and very nice too :)
In my opinion 'the taste' needs to be in the gravy from the start and spices etc added at final cooking are only added to differentiate one dish from another.
My local where I cooked a madras use the 'all in the base' method where their gravy is basically a finished curry with only the odd ingredients are added to produce the desired dish and their curry's are very good.
When I think about it 'that taste' is the curry sauce in my curry the meat or whatever tastes of whatever the product is plus a light spicing probably from a marinating process but the flavour I really like is in the sauce.
I have made countless base gravy's and the finished flavour in the recipe is 'a mild onion soup' type flavour
Then on making the curry's even after adding spice at the final curry stage ends up dissapointing once again :(
The best results I've had from memory was from the admin base which uses quite a lot of garlic and the gravy has that 'finished curry flavour' .
-
I think that (regarding the "Dine with me" proposal) that there is another problem, and that is that some of us may feel intimidated by the sheer professionalism of some of our peers. If I were to offer a "Come dine with me" experience chez Taylor, then I might manage (at best) an onion bhaji starter, a Madras chicken with pulao rice and one vegetable dish (mushroom or potato), a Mango lassi to wash it down with, and that would be about it.....
Sounds like a great offering Phil. When we did this in the past the rules were clear. 1 starter, 1 main and 1 desert and everything should cost under a certain amount, say
-
Hi
I have a channel on youtube. Focusing on doing restaurant style curries. Would appreciate it if you would check it out. Got quite a few recipes on there now, Bhuna, Vindaloo, Madras, some hotter Phalls too. I offer support too via comments lol. Tell us what you think. Al
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNIGLJUIqKI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNIGLJUIqKI)
Subscribe for FREE recipes
-
Got quite a few recipes on there now, Bhuna, Vindaloo, Madras, ...
Yes, Curryhell's Madras. You're a rip-off merchant, Al -- take your stolen ideas somewhere else : they're not welcome here.
Al's picture of "his" Madras (scroll down) : https://twitter.com/aconst8251 (https://twitter.com/aconst8251)
Curryhell's original : http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,7563.msg75021.html#msg75021 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,7563.msg75021.html#msg75021)
-
Erm, this picture was taken in my kitchen, on my table. If you watch the video you can see ME cooking it and plating it up!!
-
So you deny that this image (http://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7CGkrhIEAAeo1l.jpg:large) was, until you replaced it very recently, the featured image for "your" Chicken Madras recipe on Twitter ? Very odd, considering that other images (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B7F2rLtCMAA7GJS.jpg:large) that you have foolishly left in place, have identical base URLs. Anyhow, I'm sure Curryhell will be along to discuss this with you shortly ...
P.S. Such a shame that Google cache (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BrRZjL4HbxYJ:https://twitter.com/aconst8251+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk) proves you a liar as well as an image thief ...
-
January 10, 2015 has been removed from the calendar. For all intents and purposes this day did not exist.
Errrr, Oooops. ???