Curry Recipes Online
Beginners Guide => Trainee Chefs / Beginners Questions => Topic started by: livo on October 18, 2014, 12:54 AM
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Even though I've been cooking "Indian" and "Sri Lankan" dishes for over 20 years on a fairly regular basis, I still consider myself to be very much a beginner in terms of full understanding. Sure I can reproduce dishes and they are good but there are still elements of doubt and uncertainty.
I would very much like to open a discussion on Styles of Indian cookery as I feel it may help other beginners to understand what I hope is the concept. This site is clearly directed towards the BIR style of dish preparation as opposed to traditional. Fair enough and the difference there is fairly straight forward. I also found good reference to Aussie style which helped me so much as well but it is very different to BIR.
What is the difference between BIR and Balti? Is Balti just a small sub category of BIR? Are the only differences in the fact that Balti is less wet and served in a Balti?
I can cook a CTM Aussie Style, Traditional, BIR and probably Balti, (I haven't tried yet). Is it simply a variation of cookery style to come to a dish that is pretty much a CTM?
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Livo :)
With your 20 years of cooking experience of curry
If you have to ask the questions
Would you understand the answers?
All the info is already on this site
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Livo,
as noble ox says there is a lot posted on the subject. i think bengali bob's three balti is good start.
in very simple. BIR = indian Bangladeshi, Balti = Pakistani. it gets more complicated as Pakistani is also BIR with Balti a very small sub set.
Pakistani is found in a few concentrated areas in the UK. Bradford, Manchester to name 2.
in general i don't like the Pakistani version. i've never really worked out why. i dont like curry on the curry mile as i'm sure it is mainly Pakistani.
i think the difference is down to greater use of methi and probably use of gm in place of mix. i also think the base must be different. bengali bob i think in exploring balti is working on other potential differences of which stock is clearly a factor.
as for balti the dish or method of cooking has nothing to do with the difference. i in fact believe contrary to popular belief that balti is best cool fried not hot fried (which i use for BIR).
the trouble is many Indian BIR have attempted to copy Balti and now the waters are very muddy. the real McCoy though has not traveled outside Birmingham.
the type of naan bread is also a good indicator - balti is quite thin and sort of crispy. indian naan is soft and doughy.
there is a BBC lenny henry video i think on youtube that gives a real good overview. may even be link on this site.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12060.msg96944.html#msg96944 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,12060.msg96944.html#msg96944)
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What is the difference between BIR and Balti? Is Balti just a small sub category of BIR? Are the only differences in the fact that Balti is less wet and served in a Balti?
I can cook a CTM Aussie Style, Traditional, BIR and probably Balti, (I haven't tried yet). Is it simply a variation of cookery style to come to a dish that is pretty much a CTM?
This last part confuses me, Livo. What is the dish to which you refer that is "pretty much a CTM" ? I assume not a balti, because one of those and a CTM are as different as chalk and cheese, so unclear as to which dish you are referring in those closing words.
** Phil.
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Thanks to all, and especially to Noble Ox. I think I'll understand the answers. I say 20 years regularly as in fairly often, but not weekly of even close in terms of regular meals. It has not been a major part of our diet, just an occasional treat. Your answers so far actually reflect the exact point of query. Simply a point of clarification. From this side of the planet I've not eaten a genuine Brum Balti and so have no idea as to what it should be like. Shops sell "Balti" but is it really?
Phil, can you have a Balti CTM, or a BIR CTM or a traditional style CTM? (or even an AIR CTM). They would all be Chicken Tikka Masala but different. I guess this is the question your asking of me. My research outside this forum leads to information that simply says a Balti is a meatier version (or less saucy version) served in a balti dish. I would think there is obviously more to it than that.
Jerry has more or less given me the clarification I was after and some direction. Now clearer in my mind than mud. As I said, I still consider myself very much a beginner in this style of cooking.
I hope this gives a better idea into my questions?
I'm not happy to play a guitar but I build them and amplifiers. Practise is one thing and knowledge is more.
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Phil, can you have a Balti CTM, or a BIR CTM or a traditional style CTM? (or even an AIR CTM).
To the best of my knowledge (I don't eat CTM, and live too far from the Balti Triangle to want to try a balti), BIR CTM exists (and is virtually oxymoronic) , and AIR CTM probably exists. There can be no "traditional" CTM because it was invented over here, but if you look into Chicken Makhani you will get an idea of its traditional roots. As to a Balti CTM, no idea; these days, almost certainly yes (somewhere); when Balti dishes were first launched, almost certainly not.
** Phil.
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I think you have answered a big part of my question right there Phil. Oxymoronic. I would appear to me that in much of Indian cooking people just throw in an Indian food name or two or three just for the sake of it.
Didn't someone here recently cook a Tikka Bhuna Tandoori Balti Chicken Korma or something similar?
As Jerry says, I believe the waters have been muddied.
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I had a FIR, French Indian Restaurant CTM, which bore no resemblance to BIR.
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I had a FIR, French Indian Restaurant CTM, which bore no resemblance to BIR.
And my wife, mother-in-law and I once had FIRFP ("French Indian Restaurant Food Poisoning"), having eaten tandoori chicken that must have been disinterred from the local cemetery so bad did it smell. Never again. I've eaten good Vietnamese food in France, and of course good French food, but never good Indian food and now I never shall ...
** Phil.
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Another way to ask this beginners question in the beginners section is:
How is a "Real Balti" different from any other style?
(and I don't mean the Wikipedia definition, ie: "A Balti (Balti: ????, Urdu: ?????) is a type of curry served in a thin, pressed steel wok-like "balti bowl".[1] It is served in many restaurants in the United Kingdom. The consensus appears to be that the term refers to the pot in which the curry is cooked,[2][unreliable source?] rather than to any specific ingredient or cooking technique, although it is stated that it is cooked until the cooking liquid has largely evaporated. [3]")
Quote from Bengali Bob Oct 2 2013. Three Baltis
"The main thing that is throwing me somewhat at the moment is that the Kushi base, spice mix and pre-cooks are, I feel, essentially very much like what (in the right hands) can be used to make typical high-quality "BIR faire", whereas the actual dishes from the Kushi are (in my experience) high-quality "Birmingham balti". Both highly desirable food stuffs, yet markedly different in nature."
This is on p 11/38. Waters still muddy for me but I intend to read the whole thread this morning and some of the links contained therein.
Curryhell from p 6
"Maybe one day, i'll get back to Brum and get to try a real balti. I sure as hell am not going to get anything close down my neck of the woods, albeit served in the right dish and called a balti :( .
Good luck to those on the balti quest."
fried from p15
"I've heard people talk in hushed whispers about the Birmingham Baltis but unfortunatly missed the boat on that. I find it hard to understand the exact difference in taste between Balti and standard BIR."
jerry p16
"across most of BIR land there is no difference between Balti and BIR dishes."
So I've read the 38 pages and it would appear that Jerry has provided the closest thing to a method / ingredient list to a Balti, as far as a couple of people are concerned anyway. I see very little difference in ingredients to other curries and the method is about low heat / quick fry as opposed to high heat / singeing.
Stock, soy, tomato powder, rose petals, pandan, ajwain (which is not lovage), secret GM's, oil or ghee, pre-cooked meat or fresh. All still not answered definitively. What makes a balti a balti?
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Maybe youll have to take a trip to Brum and find out for yourself livo. I have never been myself ,but it is on my to do list.
Most restaurants in Hull have baltis on there menus, but they are very similar in flavour to any of the non balti curries .
I ordered a chicken tikka balti garlic chilli korai :o last Monday, and to be honest it was a little disappointing , it was nice but not as good as I have made. It was a little wet and I cant help thinking that it would have been far tastier if it were to be reduced further. Definitely not a Balti IMO ;D
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I can't see that happening any time soon M, and really it isn't going to cause me to toss and turn. I'm just a little confused as to what actually constitutes a curry being called a Balti.
Mind you I di not intend this topic to be totally about Balti. There are many areas of general confusion in this area of cooking. I guess I was just hoping that there was a simple explanation. Obviously not and after 38 pages of discussion in the Three Baltis thread I'm not sure even the gurus actually know either.
Never mind. I might just buy a book and put a sign out the front that says Birmingham.
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What makes a balti a balti?
for me this is a few things - surprisingly nothing to do with taste
1) the naan bread is far better than BIR and mandatory - its sort of crisp and used to eat with (there is no rice)
2) the food coming in a smoking cast iron pot is well impressive
3) the ability to take your own drink (and pop ie family friendly)
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So Balti is a dining experience, only available in Brum, rather than the food?
I have been reading everything I can on Balti and Kushi on the site and following the links and one thing that is emerging is that there are regular references to a Balti being just a BIR (albeit a good one). I am puzzled by the posts of some, who like their balti with "lots of sauce" and want to "keep the base gravy thin". If anything at all, these characteristics would in fact make it "anything but a balti".
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Balti Sauce / Gravy compared to BIR.
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It was too late to do observations here last night so here is a list. Based on loose transcription to 1kg onion quantities.
Note: * in CA sauce spices means they are in the spice mix he used.
I intend to do similar analysis of as many other sauce recipes as possible over the next fortnight as I'll be slowed down a fair bit from surgery this afternoon.
Balti sauces contain around 6 whole spices not found in the BIR.
The kushi balti has considerable vegetable in the form of capsicum and carrot.
Other spices in the balti are double and 4X that in BIR.
Balti sauce uses at least double the amount of tomato.
These observations do not take into account the preparation of actual dishes yet.
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Great post livo :) keep up the good work
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I haven't cooked a curry in a couple of weeks as I've been eating from the freezer. I have been doing a lot of research on basics though and trying to get my head around the many and significant inconsistencies in the styles of cooking. I would really like to understand the characteristic brought to a dish from each individual spice as well as how they interact. A task I know.
I'm amazed by how many times I've come across somebody posting something like, "Well that dish can't be that dish because it doesn't have this ingredient". For example the Madras is extremely controversial as to what should and should not be in it.
The big surprise in the above table is the large amount of spice and body in the Belting Balti base when compared to the CA BIR base sauce. CA's has 2400ml of water and only 5 1/2 - 6 Teaspoons of spice where as the Belting Balti is only 600ml of water and 24 Teaspoons of spice, which equates to 16X the spice level plus it also has the whole spices cooked in as well.
No wonder Balti is different.
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livo,
am sure like quite a few am very interested in your work and post replies don't reflect the interest.
will help where i can.
i do feel you have set a massive challenge for yourself.
if i gave the impression that Balti is all about the experience i must add clarification. the food is very different to BIR.
i think you are right in that most of this difference is down to the spice ie the base and cooking technique are not the game changers.
don't worry too much on thinness as its the finished consistency that is important - both BIR and Balti are similar with Balti having more sauce across most dishes - they need sauce to enable eating with the naan.
my current thought on the difference is that it is down to using gm in place of mix powder. i do think the base will be different but not hudge.
i have a very good book (100 Best Balti) which i've been inputting to spreadsheet to do similar to you. i can email it if you need (pm me). the data is in but not formatted well. i'm having a too busy year and most of my to do list has gone nowhere. if its any use to you in its basic form its yours.
i do think balti will keep you scratching your head. an example from my trip last xmas being i'd always thought of balti having less puree and would defo not have tandoori masala powder. both were wrong. it could be they have changed to meet their changing customers - i dont really know. the adil offering that i sampled was really spot on a 10. others have reported it poor. i know the kyber well which is a different restaurant. the food is different at both places yet the owners are know to each other (possible relatives). you would think this would make for the same but its not. balti in itself much like BIR is quite a wide variable.
make the adil balti using a normal base. do a garlic tarka in heavy pan (ideally karahi) and you should get a decent idea of what a steaming balti looks and tastes like.
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Thanks J.
I have seen that book and I'll probably add it to my growing library of cookbooks. At Graeme's suggestion I recently bought the "Real Balti Cookbook" (Baljekar).
The interesting thing about this book (and others I already have) is that it provides a recipe for a restaurant style base sauce right at the beginning but then there is only a small section at the back of the book that uses it. Only 6 recipes of the 100 in the book use the Kadhai Gravy (Balti base sauce) and another 5 use the Makhani Gravy (Butter Sauce). The rest of the book is predominately "Balti" cooked in traditional style. To me they just look like any other Indian Recipe cookbook.
The apparent "definition of a Balti" from her viewpoint is that it is cooked in the Balti pan or Karahi, and actually refers to the Kadhai Sauce in one recipe as Karahi Sauce by mistake. Balti, Kadhai ,Karahi and wok all being different names for the same type of pot.
Some people claim BIR came from Balti style while others claim that Balti is a sub-section of BIR. Chicken / Egg syndrome? Or perhaps it's both in that BIR was developed from the Baltistan style of cooking as a region and then the "BRUM Balti" was refined and developed out of that. It could be that we are actually dealing with 2 very different animals.
It is interesting you say that it contains more gravy as I have read the exact opposite.
I have put the data from a couple more Base Sauce recipes into my spreadsheet so today I'll add the one from this book and post another screenshot.
I agree that it is a task to try to investigate / replicate but it is something to do. There is so much conflicting info and varied accounts of both BIR and Balti so there will be no definitive answer here, just my own observations.
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Some people claim BIR came from Balti style
Such people must be very young. I was eating BIR-style curries in Birmingham 40 years ago, at which time the Balti triangle did not exist and no-one had ever heard of a balti curry.
** Phil.
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I probably should have said "Baltistan style" Phil, meaning that the BIR possibly came from chefs who brought their cooking knowledge and techniques from that region, as opposed to "The Balti" as we know it, or don't.
My investigation and research is very circular and sometimes wildly tangential at the moment and it is clear that there is no single explanation as to how either BIR or Balti evolved. I am, however, thoroughly enjoying the trip at this point.
Different singular and combined definitions of Balti so far:
A dish cooked in a Balti Pan.
A dish served in the same pan in which it was cooked, ie a Balti Pan, Karahi or Kadhai.
A dish that is dryer than a normal BIR curry with more meat and less sauce. (Contrary to what Jerry has recently posted.)
A dish that is eaten by using bread rather than utensils.
A dish that is an "Indian Stir Fry".
A dish that contains both meat and vegetables.
A dish that comes from Birmingham.
So does this mean that you can't have a Balti anywhere other than BRUM, in a normal pot, serve it on a plate, eat it with a knife and fork, have a saucy dish or a balti that contains only meat or vegetables at the exclusion of the other? Can a balti be slow cooked?
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So here is an updated version of my Base Sauce / Gravy comparison Spreadsheet.
I've added the Bajelkar book sauces in the Balti section because they come from a Balti Book, but really the Base sauce is more like a BIR when you look at it, (albeit with lots of G/G and Tomato compared to anything else) and her Butter Sauce is something completely different to anything else with no onion or water but with cream.
Also note that The Original Onion Base Gravy and Curried Away both use a spice mix that I have not yet analysed to * off the included spices as I did for the other one.
Worth noting as well, is the amount of water added to the different sauces. This comparison is based on 1 kg of onions and if we were to analyse them in terms of total finished liquid volume we would get a completely different view of spicing levels.
T = Tablespoon. t = teaspoon
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Hi
I was hoping that JB had posted the Balti Paste recipe as used in the takeaway. This may of helped to show the Balti style curries as served in BIR's.
Regards
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I'd like to see it too.
Next time I go in there I'll get a demo as well as asking about his home made balti paste.
I found this recipe for a home made Balti Paste.
Ingredients
5T Coriander Seed
3T Cumin
3T Curry Powder
2T Tumeric
1T Ginger Powder
2 Cinnamon Sticks
1 Dried Chilli or 2 fresh or 1 t powder
6 Bay leaves
3t Cardamom Seed
2t Mustard Seed
2t Fennel Seed
1t Fenugreek Seed
2T Oil
1t white vinegar
Method
Dry roast or fry spices. (I don't think I'd do it this way. I wouldn't cook all of the powders.)
Grind with M&P for 2 minutes
Add oil and vinegar
Grind to a paste for further 3 minutes.
and this one from a book (lifted in qty to make similar amount), which presented it as Hot Indian (Balti) Curry Paste. Chilli, Peppercorn, Mustard and mustard oil, no wonder it's hot. But does this fit the "Balti" style?
Ingredients
5T Coriander Seed
4T Cumin
2.5T Tumeric
1 Cinnamon Stick
3T Black Peppercorns
3T Chilli Powder (no wonder she calls it hot)
2.5T Brown Mustard Seed
Seeds from 15 Pods Green Cardamom
15 Cloves
1T Fennel Seed
1T Fenugreek Seed
150 - 200 mls oil, either Vegetable or Mustard.
Method:
In this one the coriander, cumin, peppercorns, cloves, cardamom seeds, cinnamon, fennel are prepared as a GM. (Nutmeg optional.)
Dry roast the fenugreek and mustard seeds for 1 minute.
Grind to a powder.
Add other spices.
Heat the oil.
Pour over spices and mix well.
Allow to cool and store in a jar for up to 3 months refrigerated.
This is another example (2 actually) where the recipe for a paste is provided but there is no instruction on how it is used and in the case of the book, not one recipe actually calls for it's use.
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Well I have just eaten my 4th Balti from Al Frash in the last couple of weeks, and firstly I must say how unbelievably inconsistent they have been! The first two were bog standard chicken Baltis. Both the flavour and texture of the two dishes were like chalk and cheese. The first one was absolutely delicious - as I expected, and consistent with what I have tasted before. The second one which I left in the fridge for a couple of days was one of the worst curries I have ever eaten!! The only redeeming factor/taste was a definite chicken stock taste to it. In fact that was the only taste. That curry was cooked on a saturday night so I cant see that it was cooked by a stand in chef. It was pale and watery. Very disappointing.
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mickdabass,
that pic does not look appetizing at all - real disappointment. even across BIR that discrepancy in quality is getting worse. i see it down to the price pressure that has changed what was a cheap ingredient offfering (like pizza) balanced with over supply.
livo,
attached my similar incomplete spreadsheet (may be of help/interest). i've given up on it for the moment. i hope to have a 2nd meet in Brum this xmas and aim to try to get portion of base to try - without knowing what i'm aiming to produce its up creak without paddle. in short even with all the published info there is no wrong answer and very little useful information.
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/73797c3b1f4162cf178fd5ad0f95c2fa.JPG) (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/#73797c3b1f4162cf178fd5ad0f95c2fa.JPG)
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Still unable to do much after my recent surgery, I'm off on another little adventure in the kitchen today and boy am I glad of it. A great success, or at least I think so. What 5%? Hahaha.
It started yesterday when I was cooking the Rogan Josh and to fill in the blank time I was looking further into the mention of the "Homemade Balti Paste" above. I'm documenting here so I can remember, as much as passing the info off to anybody else, but I recommend you give this a try.
I made a batch of the first paste shown in my post just above. I noted to myself that it was way too dry and added a little extra oil and a splash more vinegar but I still wasn't satisfied, although it would probably work like that. Today I was looking at other homemade pastes, particularly native Indian ones and noticed that they are partially cooked and bottled like a preserve so I found a good recipe page as a guide and set about creating something.
I blended up 1 onion, 1Tablespoon each of Garlic and Ginger and 2 green chillies with some water to make a smooth paste / puree. I then heated a couple of Tbsp of Veg oil in a pan and cooked the water out of it. Then added a bit more oil because I wasn't satisfied with the separation. Next in went some tomato puree and tomato paste, not much, and then cooked the water out again.
Next I added the spice paste I'd made yesterday and immediately the magic happened. It smelled great.
I cooked this off for a minute or two till it was hot through, not too much then bottled it in a hot jar.
There was about a Tbsp that didn't fit in the jar and JerryM has told us recently to do practice sauces without meat, so off I go into the next phase.
Bit of oil heated then in with the left over paste for just a minute. Smells great, Added half an onion chopped and cooked it briefly but was scared of burning the spices so I added in a good splash of base gravy, kept it going on high until it needed more gravy and added a second lot. By this time the onion is nearly cooked enough. A splash of tomato puree, a squeeze of fresh lime, pinch of Fenugreek leaf, pinch of Balti Garam Masala and done.
I though I'd probably throw it away after I tasted it but I couldn't help myself from eating the whole thing.
Pics to come in a minute after I resize them. This is great.
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Jerry
The Al Frash portions are measley. I have weighed the last two that I have had. 130 - 135 grammes including the foil container. My mate goes there regularly and gets me a t/a when he does. Told him not to bother again...
Livo
Sorry to hear about your health problems, just hoping the surgery was successful and you are on the road to a speedy recovery. If its any consolation, my wifes got to have some surgery very soon, and we are all very worried.
Anyhow I digress. Last night I poured my fourth batch of "balti" gravy down the drain and I have now thrown the towel in with that. I have been using the RCR gravy + tweaks but seems like I am getting further and further from what I am trying to achieve. I have never tried making a paste, but after looking at your photos, I still might give it a try.
My general conclusion is that if restaurants like Al Frash can't consistently produce a good balti; what chance have we got??
Best Regards
Mick
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Your Al Frash experience is disappointing, MTB. As I've said before, I've never knowingly had a genuine Balti, so I wouldn't know what to expect other than as described by members on the forum.
I DID order what purported to be a Balti chicken from a local T/A last weekend and it wasn't even a great curry, never mind anything else. It reminded me why I regularly make my own and rarely order anything in from T/As nowadays.
I'm interested in livo's thoughts about paste, though. It's something I've been mulling over for a long time now, but haven't really got into gear about it yet. I made a couple of pastes from the Cook4One (http://www.cook4one.co.uk/) website about a year ago, but I thought they were a bit bland for my tastes and just put the idea on the back burner without further experimentation.
It was only when a recent thread came up about slow cooker curries and the question of the singing and baghaaring of powdered spices was posed that the idea of pastes and their relevance to slow cooking sprung back to mind.
It's not something I would usually do, but I DO have a slow cooker which does little else than gather dust. I think I'm going to take a couple of different currys up to the stage immediately before adding base gravy and see how the resulting pastes fare in a slow cooker.
I'm sure it'll produce something worth eating, if not exactly BIR. Worth a punt anyway! :)
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Emm balti paste
When I first started out making "English" curry I was told to use paste and although it did taste horrible it certainly did work and I feel equally important as the spice mix
As for it being used in brum balti I'm not convinced.
We need Bengali bob or other local member to ask the question.
The difficulty I have is that all those ingredients are already covered in the base and gm. Why add work if you don't need to.
It would be a major step forward to know if they do. If it is I am sure it would be made not bought.
I do know that my fav BIR makes sauces to make their main dishes - the principle is not that potty.
Ps 130g deserves to go out of busines
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Paste may or may not be a BIR thing, but it is Indian traditional from what I can gather. All I can say is that I had fun making it, although I'd probably only make half as much next time. Plus the first time I used it in a test sauce I was really happy with the result.
I again point out that I most likely have absolutely no idea of the taste of a BIR dish or a BRUM Balti, unless the industry over here is a copy and I don't know about it. I just enjoy this style of cooking and I'm really liking what I make.