Curry Recipes Online
Curry Base Recipes => Curry Base Chat => Topic started by: Madrasandy on April 27, 2014, 07:57 AM
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I had a night of cooking last night and ordered a take away from a restaurant, at the end of ordering I asked if I could have a portion of base sauce, he wasnt sure what i meant, but when I explained further he said "you just want the gravy?, Ill go and ask if you can", he came back and said I can, ?1.75.
Couldnt wait for this to arrive, and it didnt disappoint, the smell was like no base sauce I have ever made, the smell was just fantastic, BIR smell, It made me seriously question everything I have learnt about cooking base sauces, or whether I even want to make them again, I think we are so far of the mark. The missing % in your final curry is from the base sauce and nothing to do with the final recipe.
Anyway I froze the base and next Friday I will dissect it, photo it, compare it to my base, make 2 identical Madras's, and document everything I can, and hopefully LEARN something.
Andy
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Exactly what happened to me last week.My own gravy simply couldn't compare with that from the restaurant,and I bet if I tasted most genuine gravies from chefs they would be the same.There's something that these places are doing to their gravy,and I bet they're all doing it in a similar way.Why is it so hard to find out though?
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I've been down this road so many times.
Like you two, I've bought (or been given) base gravy
And it's nothing like we can make at home
It has a more "rounded" flavour
There is a smell to it, and yes, an extra taste which is "I have no idea what"
I have spent days trying to match my gravy with theirs
My gravies looked the same, and contained many of the charactaristics of the original
But a dead match?
No way
I still believe the difference, is the oil they use in the base
After all our collective experience, it is truly amazing there is anything unknown
But there is
And it's the most important thing
If you haven't got the base right, the curry won't taste right
Only once did I get what I wanted
That was using old oil from a kebab shop, and copying a base recipe I had watched at a takeaway.
That particular takeaway used old oil too
The oil on it's own had very little character about it
But as soon as it was added to the boiling onions:-
Wow!
Instant BIR aroma
Just like the takeaway bag smells
or the aroma that fill your car, as you drive home with it
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Hi Haldi, I am going to try the "old Oil" in my next batch of gravy, it has been used to cook onion bhaji and poppodoms, I think I may boil onions on their own and then drain water before adding any other ingredient. Were missing the Umami taste("pleasant savory taste") from the base , Cabbage and chicken creates Umami, so maybe I'll use chicken stock and cabbage in my gravy.
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on that note, I tried adding a quarter of white cabbage to my last base, it added no difference to my finished base - the quest continues
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Hi Haldi, I am going to try the "old Oil" in my next batch of gravy, it has been used to cook onion bhaji and poppodoms
Many of us have already been down this route and, for me at least, it made no discernable difference. Whatever flavour and aroma was in the oil to start with just disappeared when used in the base. It may be part of the puzzle but I seriously doubt it's the whole answer.
You never know though, perhaps you'll be the one whose specific mix of ingredients finally solves the puzzle.
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Yes SS but maybe everything we know about base cooking methods is actually wrong and the whole process is different and the old oil thingy works !!!! ;D
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My local takeaway defo uses white cabbage. I have seen them leaving my store (Tesco) with it along with their 100 bags of value flour (for the naans)
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My local takeaway defo uses white cabbage. I have seen them leaving my store (Tesco) with it along with their 100 bags of value flour (for the naans)
Some BIRs do use cabbage in their base Loup. Also the main ingredient for Bangladeshi pre-cooked veg/veg bhaji etc., in many places. Pakistani BIRs pile it into their salads. Very nice too.
Rob :)
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I don't know what base recipe you are using but BIR do put white cabbage in their base gravy. Also carrot, peppers, sometimes a potato too. Coriander stalks, and of course onions.
Try frying-off those ingredients together in the saucepan with the oil before adding the water.
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I had a night of cooking last night and ordered a take away from a restaurant, at the end of ordering I asked if I could have a portion of base sauce, he wasnt sure what i meant, but when I explained further he said "you just want the gravy?, Ill go and ask if you can", he came back and said I can, ?1.75.
Couldnt wait for this to arrive, and it didnt disappoint, the smell was like no base sauce I have ever made, the smell was just fantastic, BIR smell, It made me seriously question everything I have learnt about cooking base sauces, or whether I even want to make them again, I think we are so far of the mark. The missing % in your final curry is from the base sauce and nothing to do with the final recipe.
Anyway I froze the base and next Friday I will dissect it, photo it, compare it to my base, make 2 identical Madras's, and document everything I can, and hopefully LEARN something.
Andy
I got some Gravy at the end of a meal last week, they charged ?2.99 for about enough to make one curry.
I found it thicker than I expected and as many others have said it had enough flavor to eat standalone (unlike mine which ends up very bland.)
Unfortunately I didn't have time to use it before it went past the BBD but I did take a couple of photos if anyones interested.
3 images deleted by George - far, far too large! I can't see the code for the one left, so I'm unable to delete it.
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Philllllllllllllllllllllllllllll :)
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Here are the images, rescaled down to a size whereby they might be seen, if not so close up:
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/352ed193589fb46d5bdba2149fadf96e.jpg)
(http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/imagehost/pics/7a5cd832c52cfe7605444cc04d61bcd2.jpg)
There were only two images but each one had been posted twice.
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Hi
Are you sure you weren't given curry sauce ?
Regards
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Hi
Are you sure you weren't given curry sauce ?
Regards
It was definitely base gravy as I couldn't detect any particularly prominent spices, it was just lumpier and more mature than what I've seen before.
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It does look like a basic curry sauce but some bases are nearly that anyway so it probably is their base. You're right it does look a tad lumpy though. What are their curries like?
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It does look like a basic curry sauce but some bases are nearly that anyway so it probably is their base. You're right it does look a tad lumpy though. What are their curries like?
Absolutely great, they have become extremely popular locally delivering up to three times the competition in terms of quantity. I've eaten in twice now and both times I've had a doggy-bag that was a full meal in itself for the next day.
The owner is from Birmingham and is said to have multiple restaurants as well other significant business interests.
Apologies for the high res images I keep forgetting they don't get scaled down automatically.
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How about using spiced and garlic oil and using a thin stock instead of the usual 2 litres of water? Might give it some depth of flavour (although weak enough not to be discernable as chicken) that water can't
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Most base gravies no matter what you put in them IE, Cabbage, Carrot etc doesnt make to much difference, The way Takeaways and restaurants get that elusive flavour is all down to the mix powder, Having been in a few kitchens Ive found it very difficult to try and get a recipe for the mix powder they use, When i asked them it was just a no no, If the mix powder can be cracked you will get the elusive taste thats missing,
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The way Takeaways and restaurants get that elusive flavour is all down to the mix powder........ If the mix powder can be cracked you will get the elusive taste thats missing,
:o :o I think there's a few on here that would disagree with that belief. There's as many mix powders as there are gravies as there are TA and BIRs. If i were a betting man, my money would certainly be elsewhere :)
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My money would be 100 % on the mix powder, All onion base mixtures are much the same but without the proper mix powder you will not get the elusive flavour in the base to begin, Ive been in few kitchens and tasted the base gravy and thats where the elusive taste already begins.
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Will be interesting to hear of your progress as you chase the "magic" mix powder then Mike. It may shorten your journey a bit if you read up on the many posts written here over the years on mix powder by good cooks, including the use of samples of BIR mix powders. I can't remenber reading of any breakthroughs though ::) Maybe they were just using the wrong mix powder perhaps ;D ;D
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My money would be 100 % on the mix powder, All onion base mixtures are much the same but without the proper mix powder you will not get the elusive flavour in the base to begin, Ive been in few kitchens and tasted the base gravy and thats where the elusive taste already begins.
Yeah, complete (moderated).
The art of the base is not so much in the ingredients as in the method of cooking.
What a hunt! ::)
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::)
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Referring back to the OP, I would say that you point out exactly what I've been finding as my main frustration for years. As I wrote recently in a different thread, you can smell and feel the aroma of the Indian Joint before you see it normally. My bases, gravies and dishes smell and taste good.
But it just is missing something, and so are the naans. There are still "secrets" in my opinion.
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But it just is missing something, and so are the naans. There are still "secrets" in my opinion.
Jeez. Join the club..it's a biggun!
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But it just is missing something, and so are the naans. There are still "secrets" in my opinion.
Jeez. Join the club..it's a biggun!
I agree it is a big club. The thing is Santa, that the "secret" or "5%", or whatever you wish to call it, is supposedly not a secret anymore. This site, and others like it, plus the multitude of Youtube revealers, are all meant to have revealed the "Secret". How many posts I've read from people who have worked for X amount of years in the kitchens I can't remember, but if all was revealed we wouldn't still be scratching our heads at what is missing from our otherwise well cooked and tasty dishes.
The secret revealed? Obviously not yet.
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I reckon if someone else comes up with another "secret" book, we should take legal action
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Secrets potions are there still believers out there ? ;D
Are they the same ones who still believe ghosts exist ? ;D
I believe its a cop out rather than taking the blame for iffy cooking methods ;D
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The secret revealed? Obviously not yet.
I'm sure the "5% missing" figure was mentioned about 10 years ago on this forum. Yet despite all the books - many of which seem to be quite highly regarded, you may be right that in some ways there's been zero progress. I never did accept the 5% figure. It should be more like 10% or 20% missing - 10 years ago, and still missing today, based on various comments.
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There is a Takeaway / Dine In business in a city near me that has 4 outlets in the suburbs. As you approach these locations the aroma of the kitchen is unmistakeable and the pungency / completeness of the smell is palpable. It is a pain in the behind since it immediately induces salivation and the hunger trigger is clicked off into overdrive. The same can be said for any of another 6 or so in the surrounding areas.
The main store has a little Indian grocery section attached next door, but if you go in there and ask anything at all about recipes or techniques they sheepishly tell you that only the chef knows. I don't think my cooking technique is at all "iffy" and in fact I can turn my hand to just about anything but without the full picture, recreating any dish exactly as it is meant to be is never going to happen.
Anyone can cook a curry and some people can cook a good curry. There is more to be learnt and one would have thought it would be relatively plain in the information age. I am more than happy with my efforts so far and owe much of my improvement to finding websites like this and this one in particular, but I'm nowhere near the target yet.
Clearly I am not alone in feeling that something is missing.
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As you approach these locations the aroma of the kitchen is unmistakeable and the pungency / completeness of the smell is palpable...recreating any dish exactly as it is meant to be is never going to happen...Clearly I am not alone in feeling that something is missing.
I agree that the smells coming from BIRs can be pleasant but I'm not sure there's a direct link to the taste of the food. Once you step inside an air conditioned BIR dining room there may be some pleasant fragrance but, in my experience, it's not going to be cooking smells, even from other guests meals.
I bought yet another dhansak from a local takeaway last week. This place had come highly recommended, so my expectations were quite high. The aroma from the takeaway bag was great but, actually, the taste of the dhansak was not as good as I can now make (for what I'm aiming for) so I'm not sure the background aroma is critical.
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livo
When I am knocking up a base my kitchen and garden does smell like a Bir
Neighbours tell me that ;D
When I mention" iffy" I mean bad techniques when using spices
Its very easy to wreck a curry too much turmeric or crap paprika can cause bitterness, I never use mix powders as you seem to lose touch with whats going on
If you watch a good Bir chef you can learn a lot ;D
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Anyone can cook a curry and some people can cook a good curry.
Some people can cook a bad curry and some of those who cook bad curries are BIRs, I've tasted them. Some people can indeed cook good curries and some people can indeed cook excellent curries, some of them are on this forum.
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Spot on, Stephen! :)
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Yes!, to all of your posts. I concur with almost every word of all that you've written. My kitchen also smells of the enticing aroma of Indian food when I cook it, and particularly so after I'd prepared the 3 Australian base gravies a few weeks back. You tend to notice it more coming in "fresh" than you do by actually being amongst it as well, so it's likely that this is a contributing factor.
It may just be that the Takeaway bain marie has 12 different dishes along with samosas and Tikka all sitting there, plus the cooking pots bubbling away out back and a Tandoor turning out naan all at once that causes the complexity of the aroma. It's difficult to say.
I've been told it's the fenugreek that causes the smell and missing flavour. That's only part of it. The way the onions are cooked, ditto. Spiced oil, I'm not sure. I need to give it a real test out. Don't get me wrong here. I love my curries and they are good. The people who have eaten them love them and so do I. I just feel that there is that last tiny bit. But where would the fun be if you didn't have something extra to strive towards?
George, I believe that Taste and Smell are very closely linked senses and bacon almost always smells better than it tastes as do barbequed onions.
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some people can indeed cook excellent curries, some of them are on this forum.
With the greatest respect, how do you know? Have you ever tasted dishes prepared by anyone else on this forum? I know a few people have but, chances are, they may be over-polite when reporting back.
I still hope to invite a few people round to my house for what I'd see as a peer group review, to see what they think of my best efforts.
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Will you film it, George, for those of us who obviously won't be invited?
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george
I'm sure the "5% missing" figure was mentioned about 10 years ago on this forum. Yet despite all the books - many of which seem to be quite highly regarded, you may be right that in some ways there's been zero progress. I never did accept the 5% figure. It should be more like 10% or 20% missing - 10 years ago, and still missing today, based on various comments.
I Couldnt agree more, I know 100% unless you get the mix powder right your not going to get that elusive taste, I know because ive been told, Maybe its some food flavouring, Who knows. For all the mix powders ive tried over 25 years none have come near,
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u make me tin bath ol currant :D
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Onions, Im only saying what ive seen and tried to find out, If i could really find out i would be more than happy to share, Dont forget this is a multi million pound industry and do you really think they are going to give some secret away just like that, I very much doubt it, And if most the experts on here have cracked it why keep coming on here,
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I know many forum member have put there heart and soul in to getting behind the scenes, Being Shown how to cook by bir chefs, They have been shown how to make mix powder, But you can bet its not the mix powder they would use,
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When we pull the plug on the bathtub down here the water swirls clockwise so I always stir my onions the other way, but I'm left handed so it's difficult to do that unless I put my right foot slightly forward of the left. This is very uncomfortable for me since my left cashew is higher than the right and my Mahatma Gandhi has the opposite bent to what you'd expect for someone with a condition such as mine. My hernia mucks up terribly if the weather is on a decreasing barometer and with wind out of, well you'd have to listen to 12th man. RingStinger might know what I'm talking about.
I've found that wearing no shoes helps and I always check the temperature of my aluminium pan by burning a centipede to death. If it dies in 3.5 seconds the aluminium pan is too hot so I put my onions into the steel wok and continue on as though the centipede had it coming anyway.
Sadly none of this helps.
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The more I read of this thread the more I reckon CA is manipulating some of his worshippers Or its him again ?
Same manner of wording ;D
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george
I'm sure the "5% missing" figure was mentioned about 10 years ago on this forum. Yet despite all the books - many of which seem to be quite highly regarded, you may be right that in some ways there's been zero progress. I never did accept the 5% figure. It should be more like 10% or 20% missing - 10 years ago, and still missing today, based on various comments.
I Couldnt agree more, I know 100% unless you get the mix powder right your not going to get that elusive taste, I know because ive been told, Maybe its some food flavouring, Who knows. For all the mix powders ive tried over 25 years none have come near,
You may be barking up the wrong tree there Mike, after all those years
ELW
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You may be barking up the wrong tree there Mike, after all those years
Up a gum tree, more like !
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I think he's been snorting his own mix powder :D
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I know for a FACT that the missing 6.3% is in the brand of tomato puree used. You see the chef's cooking in a kitchen they always take it directly from already opened jars, you never see those jars being opened though, do you? Or delivered for that matter.
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http://www.businessinsider.com/independence-vote-rigging-conspiracy-theory-sweeping-scotland-2014-9 (http://www.businessinsider.com/independence-vote-rigging-conspiracy-theory-sweeping-scotland-2014-9)
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http://www.businessinsider.com/bir-mix-powder-deliberate-misinformation-conspiracy-theory-sweeping-curry-forums-2014-9 (http://bir-ebooks.co.uk/bir-mix-powder-deliberate-misinformation-conspiracy-theory-2014-9.html)
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I agree fried, Showing what they do and what they actually do are two different things,
ONIONS, As you seem to know it all, I would like to try your mix powder that gives this elusive taste, Maybe you could post it?
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I didn't realise that fried wasn't taking the piss out of you :P :D
Yes mate you can.
Abdul's eight spicer.
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I'm with livo on this one. Except I hop on my right leg whilst stirring clockwise four times then anticlockwise 7 times.
Add a pinch of powdered unicorns testicle, then steal something from Tesco, compete in a local domino tourney, put on a pair of frilly panties, then stir again as above.
Et voila, perfect curry ;D
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steal something from Tesco, put on a pair of frilly panties
Er, right -- I think that tells us all we need to know, Mr McGarp. I wouldn't bother setting your alarm clock for tomorrow morning -- I imagine the sound of the SIB breaking down your front door at 04:00 will be more than enough to ensure that you don't miss your appointment at the Bailie ...
** Phil.
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Now try not laugh whilst saying "Mike Hunt makes good gravy" :D :D
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Now try not laugh whilst saying "Mike Hunt makes good gravy" :D :D
Aspiration, Onions, aspiration is the key. Sound your h's as you were taught at school, and all will be well; swallow them like a common East End barrow boy and you may well experience a little difficulty inhibiting your laugh reflex ...
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What is the SIB by the way?
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What is the SIB by the way?
You'll find out tomorrow, Mr McGarp, don't you worry :)
("Special Investigations Branch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Investigation_Branch)", by the way -- none too gentle with those suspected of theft from major supermarket chains or the wearing of women's underwear, I understand ...).
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As opposed to theft by major supermarkets (http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/sep/24/tesco-director-mark-armour-not-involved-monitoring-accountancy-watchdog-frc) :)
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Good time to buy shares in Tesco, that's all I can say.
Oops, another topic completely de-railed. Sorry, chaps.
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No worries. Shouldn't be that difficult to get this one back on track; viz the nailing of MH to the door... ;) LOL
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I wasn't aware that British military investigators got involved in such things, Phil.
Although, based on recent events, if America tells them to do it, I suppose they would ????
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I know many forum member have put their heart and soul into getting behind the scenes, being shown how to cook by BIR chefs. They have been shown how to make mix powder but you can bet it's not the mix powder they would use.
I'm sure you're right and, to a large extent, many people have been duped. H4C may be another victim but perhaps we'll never know. Why would a good restaurant give away its commercial secrets?
Now I'm having some success, with dhansak primarily, I can start to assess what's been left out of earlier recipes - a few of which have been highly rated by other people - but none of which delivered the type of flavours produced by the best BIRs, when I tried them.
Yes, the mix powder is important but so are a lot of other elements. They all have to be right, in my opinion. I feel the final dish will only be as good as the weakest link.
I edited the text I quoted and made about a dozen changes. Your English is too good for you to make that many mistakes by accident, so I think it must be deliberate, like the messy use of lower and upper case lettering in your user name. Why have lower case H for your second name?
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Why have lower case H for your second name?
Well clearly, George (as any classics scholar such as your good self should know) because it is spiritus lenis, not spiritus asper, otherwise the verbal pun will just not work ...
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Is now the time Mr hunt to declare that curry powder has been the best kept secret in the world ;D ;D ;D
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The more I read of this thread the more I reckon CA is manipulating some of his worshippers Or its him again ?
Same manner of wording ;D
Yep
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Is now the time Mr hunt to declare that curry powder has been the best kept secret in the world ;D ;D ;D
Wow secret curry powder ;)
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Now try not laugh whilst saying "Mike Hunt makes good gravy" :D :D
I couldn't do it!! Like Frank Zappa Joe's Garage. "Add water, makes it's own sauce". I think it was Crew Slut.
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The more I read of this thread the more I reckon CA is manipulating some of his worshippers Or its him again ?
Same manner of wording ;D
Not sure if it's me your thinking of here Ox, but I can assure you all that I am not, nor am I even vaguely familiar with, CA. I have obviously come across reference to the one known as CA and even read some posts in various places. It would appear that there is some manner of amusement concerning CA and I am not even sure I know what any of it is about. Is CA an upside-downer like me?
I don't believe there is a "secret" or many individual "secrets", since the same heady aroma is evident in any if not all IR establishments I have frequented. It can't be a secret unless you compare it to the likes of KFC or Coca Cola.
http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/the-10-bestkept-business-secrets/story-fnda1bsz-1227066294542 (http://www.news.com.au/finance/business/the-10-bestkept-business-secrets/story-fnda1bsz-1227066294542)
Maybe it should be 11.
It can only be a commonly held industry practice that produces such a widespread common result. However in saying that, this industry practice must be guarded information.
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http://www.businessinsider.com/bir-mix-powder-deliberate-misinformation-conspiracy-theory-sweeping-curry-forums-2014-9 (http://bir-ebooks.co.uk/bir-mix-powder-deliberate-misinformation-conspiracy-theory-2014-9.html)
Excellent!!
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Who the heck is CA? But on a curry note, my local Indian is almost 80% madras powder! The taste and smell in house are rich and deep with madras!
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Who the heck is CA?
This is my understanding, but I may be well off target.
As far as I know, CA is a member of several BIR forums, and is known fully as Cory Ander (coriander). I have seen his membership username show up on several sites. There appears to have been some sort of kerfuffle here with him. So now his moniker has become associated with all types of laughs and jibes. It is not understood by newer less frequent members, including myself.
I was teaching in a multicultural school many years ago as a young starting out teacher, and whenever any Lebanese student found themselves in trouble they gave their name as Sam Salim. The real Sam was actually a good student and never in trouble but he was often called upon to answer for his indiscretions. All troublesome posts here are in some way attributed to the said CA.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I also think from what I've gathered in some recent threads that he may even be an Aussie like me.
I have a fwiend you know. His name is Bigguth Dikuth.
Who shall we welease?
Welease Bwian.
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I have a fwiend you know. His name is Bigguth Dikuth.
Who shall we welease?
Welease Bwian.
Not sure about CA , more like Chukit ;)