Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on March 09, 2013, 06:10 PM
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would appreciate all thoughts on how you can jump from standard "good" BIR to best.
i feel i need CA to achieve this and prepared to await his return. i know there are quite a few respectable members who will be able to help too.
i feel i pretty much know enough of the what & when. yes i've still got much to learn but only best will do.
i think i need to focus on the why but before embarking on such an onerous objective would very much appreciate blinkers off ideas.
essentially why can some BIR chefs produce those memorable dishes. the word memorable is stolen from peter reinhart who associates it with best pizza. i'm after the equivalent in curry.
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Hi JerryM,
I think "memorable" curry is not always due to the chef's abilities, but due to a number of planets that aligned, if you know what I mean. I don't understand exactly your reference to CA, why do you need to wait for him and why is he gone ?
I suppose one area we don't really discuss much is how make our curries look nicer/accurately (though a number of members does get this right consistently) as it is a known fact that if the curry does look right according to what we would expect from a BIR it will cause us to enjoy it better.
Goncalo
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goncalo,
much appreciate your thoughts.
it's really got me puzzled - i find that these "memorable" dishes are in few BIR's and the same chef can produce spectacular for these dishes yet the rest of the menu is nothing special.
CA is very technically minded in his approach and i feel this will be needed. a general and foot soldier combination.
the look would be the icing at then end. i do take your point though that i may have to do blind testing to evaluate a result when the difference between say 2 dishes becomes very difficult to call. i'm not looking for huge step differences just a series a fine tuning that collectively will deliver that extra mile - turning very good into best.
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given the low feedback thought i'd spice the request up a little that hopefully is easier to understand.
so say i am a BIR manager and been so for 30 ish years. my chef produces a few curries that are very popular and i sell a lot of them (he calls them chef specials, i call them best you can produce). a lot of the menu just does not seem to attract the same amount of attention though.
the equipment and technique used by the chef are fine. i could get my veg cut a little more fancy "consistent" and maybe make the dishes look a tad better but we wish to stick to our roots.
there are several things that i'm not prepared to do:
1) go Michelin star on the presentation
2) sell standard and small portions
3) change the menu
4) change the oil
5) change the chef
the question is where do i need to look to raise the standard of the mains so that all become popular.
things i have on my mind are:
1) is my base not good enough
2) are the mains recipes not good enough
3) do my pastes need improvement
4) do i need more/different pastes
you can convince yourself on either or all of the above - hence the dilemma - where to look 1st to make all best - in short how do some BIR's step up from the norm on the high street.
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...in short how do some BIR's step up from the norm on the high street.
The answer's easy, achieving it isn't.
All restaurants, BIR's included (and given their sheer number, it's harder for BIR's) operate on a profit basis, otherwise they wouldn't stay in business very long and many of them don't. Producing profit is a simple equation, you have to produce more income via sales than you spend on overheads but the problem with many BIR's and particularly today is that overheads are increasing. Salaries are increasing, rents are increasing and food costs are increasing, so they cut corners, they use cheap ingredients and pay low wages.
To increase quality, you need to spend more on wages in terms of better qualified staff and more on quality ingredients, but that then means your unit costs goes up, it's a fine balance, which is why an awful lot of BIR's cut corners and use lower quality ingredients and essentially line cooks.
All BIR's could up their quality, but it would also mean their end prices would go up with it and not many would probably be prepared to spend that much more. You do tend to get what you pay for.
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spiceyokooko,
appreciated you trying to help.
i'm now convinced down to the lack of input that no one really has an answer. i myself don't have a clue and the reason for the post.
i will go on my gut feeling on how i can produce "best" from where i currently am:
1) most is down to recipe, i perhaps need a few more pastes
2) there is some improvement left in the base but not a lot
what's behind the post is having 5 off dishes that i can cook at "best" quality yet something like 6 or 7 mains that are well short.
an example of the shorts being perhaps rogan josh or pathia. not 1st to come to mind as special dishes but most TA versions disappoint yet i know they can be cooked to meet very high expectations. they are lovely dishes.
i'm happy to plod through a backward pass of the BIR process focusing on 1 & 2 above to if not answer the why's at least get a better understanding of them.
just one example being that i use whole lemon in base (many thanks to Axe) - i know from general cooking that only the rind is good - so should i in future grate the lemon. it's that kind of detail.
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Hi Jerry,
I hadn't commented on this as I wasn't really sure exactly what you were getting at and didn't want to waffle on without direction.
I honestly think the biggest problem today lies in the differences between old school and modern cuisine. My recent discussions with Ali the owner of the Shanaz have been quite interesting. I asked recently "so there was much more going on in the kitchen back then?" the reply simply "you have no idea!". My understanding is that many of these processes that once existed in BIR are no longer practised today. Restaurant owners want to cut down the work time in the kitchen and chefs want to be able to meet the high demand in an already busy kitchen on a Friday night.
It stands to reason that if they have consolidated some of these practises they will have less control over the final dishes that they wish to make. Which is why I feel that many dishes seem to be similar or lack that 'memorable' quality. Ending up with an array of acceptable dishes, with just a few really good ones.
So for me, I would suggest looking at the current recipes and what it is that gives them their character. Then work out if the ingredients in my base and spice mix are totally compatible with them. Remove the spices which don
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i'm now convinced down to the lack of input that no one really has an answer. i myself don't have a clue and the reason for the post.
Umm... it's hard to give you a definitive answer because no-one really knows what you're trying to achieve. What is best? Who's best? Your best? My best? His best? Atul Kochars best? What I consider to be good might not be what you consider to be good and so it goes on. It's hard to define.
What is interesting though, is that both Malc (Axe) and myself have given two quite different answers to your question because we've interpreted what you were after differently, yet, they both contain the same central theme or core. That's no coincidence because we're both thinking and looking at this from a similar perspective.
I talked about the need for modern BIR's to balance inputs and outputs with profitability, because without profitability, they either won't or wouldn't want to stay in business. BIR restauranteurs are not philanthropists, they won't provide a product or service without making a profit on it. But to enable them to do this they have some compromises to make, they have to streamline their processes to minimise their inputs and maximise their outputs.
Malc talked about the same thing and more specifically how old school BIR's did things quite differently to the way modern BIR's do things and the reasons for why they do them differently is as we've both explained - the need to remain price competitive.
As home cooks trying to replicate what we might consider to be a 'best', we're not constrained by how modern BIR's have to operate to make profits, so why do we adopt and emulate their streamlined processes? To replicate those flavours? Why if they're not the flavours we really want to replicate, which by many accounts (but not all, some are seem happy with modern flavours) many want to recreate the flavours of yesteryear?
This seems to be the point where many people have become stuck and are scratching their heads trying to understand why the dishes we're creating are falling short of what we consider to be 'the best' we can remember having, for many of us, dishes created 20, 30, 40 years ago. This is essentially why, because we're emulating or adopting modern practices to recreate those flavours we remember yet not fully realising that those dishes were simply not made with these practices.
I've found this myself, base sauces and corresponding mix powders dominate whatever dish you try and make with them regardless of how much variation you introduce in the dish construction stage. It doesn't really matter how much twiddling at dish construction stage you do, or how many new spices or ingredients you introduce, the base sauce and mix powder will still dominate the dish.
So to get away from this we have to go back to basics or how the early restaurants prepared these dishes which most certainly was not one base sauce and one mix powder. I've always believed that early restaurants used more than one base sauce and nothing I've read has made me want to change my mind. All dishes made from one single base sauce is simply expediency to maximise profits and cut down on work.
In the old school days you had pretty experienced chefs doing the cooking, now dishes are made and churned out by what is little more than line cooks just following a basic recipe. That in itself should highlight and show you the difference in quality between dishes made now and the dishes made 30-40 years ago.
Sadly, it's back to basics for a lot of us, myself included. Simplification and not complication seems the name of the game.
This is just my take on all this, I'm not saying it's the right one and I'm hoping it will stimulate some useful debate and discussion on what is for me a fascinating subject.
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Its so true that bir cut corners to make profit, and usually compromise taste. but not always.
I know of 1 bir in the poorest local village that produces the taste at 4 quid for madras , and its top notch.
and they have been in business for over 15 years
never let me in the kitchen though !
so i am not convinced its all down to expenses.
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so i am not convinced its all down to expenses.
Hmm.
Does it taste like a Madras from 30-40 years ago though?
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Axe, spiceyokooko,
many thanks - your thoughts are definitely helping and appreciated.
to try and explain what i'm getting at better - in short best is what the best BIR's of today produce and how do i get there:
1) i've no real interest in the past other than leaning that can be used today.
2) so far i've had a pretty good idea on how to improve my curries and just got on with it
3) now is different i can produce some curries really well but a lot that i'd like to produce fall far short of expectations based on what's produced by the best BIR.
4) i have a few ideas on how to improve to close a new personal gap to those top notch BIR's
5) i feel i know enough of the what and when but feel well short on the why
7) finding the why will take some effort and i want to be sure there are no other better means
you're points are starting to close on the types of things on my mind and a sort of route map seems to be emerging:
a) look at current recipes for what it is that gives them their character
b) Remove spices and or ingredients which don't fit the base and add as part of final dish
c) look at more than 1 mix powder
aside on the old v the new
for me the old was pretty good the standard was very much the same across BIR land. today there are a lot of duffers yet some have really improved and produce this "best" curry. alas they are few and far between. the price that they charge is not a measure of the success in fact more than often than not the opposite.
i make 3 different bases currently and they all produce top notch results. asked how to explain the difference i can't other than it's like visiting a different BIR. i'm less convinced that i need more than 1 base particularly given the 5 off curries that currently excel are nothing like each other yet made from the same base and mix powder.
some further details on the fine detail i currently see:
1) lemon rind and juice (per above)
2) removing some veg from the base that don't enhance the taste of the oil
3) optimising base cooking time and spice timing and qty
4) trying out additional pastes
5) try out variants of the frying process
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a) look at current recipes for what it is that gives them their character
That's pretty much where I would start from. Take Rogan Josh as a random example, I'd take a look at a very wide variety of traditional recipes for this dish and look closely at the common component parts of it, but I'd also look at the uncommon parts too as well as making a few of the dishes and tasting them and go from there. Unfortunately it's going to a long slow process!
...today there are a lot of duffers yet some have really improved and produce this "best" curry. alas they are few and far between. the price that they charge is not a measure of the success in fact more than often than not the opposite.
Indeed.
But that simply proves that some current BIR's have maintained their standards, they may be long running restaurants that have not adopted new ways of doing things, cut corners etc or they may simply have long standing experienced owner/chefs who control all the cooking.
Standards and quality in restaurants vary considerably across all sectors it's not just restricted to BIR's. You get good, bad and average restaurants serving up all variety of country cuisines.
Just because the vast majority of BIR's have adopted streamlined ways of doing things doesn't automatically mean they all have.
Let's face it, you can a good and bad Indian dish from the same restaurant depending on what time of the day or day of the week you've gone in to get it!
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I can't even seem to cook a curry as good as a bad TA on a bad day.
I haven't made much food with a base sauce lately but I enjoy a more traditional lamb keema based on a modified mamtaskitchen.com recipe.
Bit sad really but hey-ho.
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Other than what I have already commented on Jerry, I can only add that I would stick to using just one base out of the three you enjoy. Otherwise you risk having too many variables.
Perhaps it would be of benefit to list the dishes you feel you have mastered then list the dishes you are trying to master.
Also keep in mind that any changes you make to the base will also affect the dishes you have mastered.
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i'm cutting my forum time to the min to focus in on this. it's proving a challenge yet getting my grey cells going.
i'm working backwards through the process and have reached question no1 -
Q1 - What are the finishing ingredients (defined as Delicate or No cooking needed) - those that are added in say the last 1 min of cooking.
Lemon dressing, cream, honey, veg ghee/butter/marg, chutney (mango, chilli)
please add or delete to the list.
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+:= Garam masala, coriander stems, coriander leaf.
-:= don't know, but I am could not assert any on your list with complete confidence.
** Phil.
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would appreciate all thoughts on how you can jump from standard "good" BIR to best.
Discover or work out the best recipes, then practice the technique, I guess.
The top chefs who can produce the best flavours are not likely to give away their secrets, are they?
It's a bit like asking how you jump from being a mediocre guitarist in a pub band to someone like Ritchie Blackmore, who is widely rated as more gifted. You can either produce superior results or you can't.
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Phil,
many thanks for suggestions. the gm should technically go on the list and will add in. i say technically i never use it as a late addition or any addition to a main dish. the coriander is in q2.
George,
you're very right - the know what i'm searching for won't be found easily. the post was to try and tease out any thoughts that might help me get a way forward.
i must admit that i'm a tad uncertain on how successful the search will be. i can make quite a few dishes that are up there with the best already. i currently see recipe refinement (as you suggest) the best way to get the rest of the menu in the same state. the "curry weeks" for each mains being my primary focus - where i cook the same dish all week gently pushing the envelope towards what i've come to appreciate from those top notch BIR.
at the back of my mind is i guess "clarity of taste" - hence the questioning "why" of the what and when of the the jigsaw that i already know. i think Axe was onto what i'm trying to put in words.
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Q2 - What are the short cook ingredients (defined as: Ingredients needing reheat or short cook). they being added after all the base has been added
Bought pastes (tandoori, balti), Fresh coriander, Pre fried sliced onion / green pepper, sliced green chilli, late bunjarra, late garlic, fresh tomato, marrowfat peas, sultanas
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Would you include the pre-made pastes such the masala paste and korma paste that some use? Then there is the chilli pickles: naga, scotch bonnet, green chilli etc. and an array of chef made masalas.
I have to ask though, what dish do you make that uses marrowfat peas?
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I have to ask though, what dish do you make that uses marrowfat peas?
I can't answer that for Goncalo, but I can report that Jim Corbett, in one of his books concerning his life in India (during the Raj) says that one of the local farmers was very keen to get his marrowfat peas cropped and to market because the price was very high; that would certainly confirm that they are grown in India and therefore (almost) certainly used in Indian cuisine. Also attested here (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=o8NGAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA316&lpg=PA316&dq=jim+tiger+india+marrowfat&source=bl&ots=CGjX30O5bG&sig=r8AzsHsrV9etY_4pkJDoIXy3ZNo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=JslqUYKbJqj24QSekYC4AQ&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=jim%20tiger%20india%20marrowfat&f=false).
** Phil.
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I have to ask though, what dish do you make that uses marrowfat peas?
I can't speak for other people but Mattar Paneer is one I'd make with them.
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Ah yes, cheesy peas as they call it at the Shanaz (not on the menu of course). That was the only dish I could think of too, but have never ordered it so had to ask.
If they do use marrowfat, i'll have to put it on the to try list. :)
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Never heard of "marrowfat peas" before. Seems that the german translation is "Kapuzinererbsen", which are also known as "grey peas". But these are brown or grey in colour, and look more like chickpeas, while marrowfat peas look (most of the time, so it seems, per google search) more like green peas, color-wise. Wonder what the difference is.
Mattar Paneer... hmm... great dish :) Aloo Mattar is quite popular and very tasty, too!
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...Wonder what the difference is...
Marrowfat is to Pea as Mutton is to Lamb. ;)
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;D
I believe the translation was wrong, too. If the marrowfat pea is Pisum sativum var. medullare. (bot.), that should be the "Markerbse" in german. Sorry for the confusion :D
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;D
I believe the translation was wrong, too. If the marrowfat pea is Pisum sativum var. medullare. (bot.), that should be the "Markerbse" in german.
Not convinced that the cultivar is correct, Chonk. See here (http://pgrdeu.genres.de/index.php?tpl=es_show&s_land=GBR&s_art=275&s_inst=DEU146&SEQ=lai&sort=accenumb&seite=4), where it says :
Nr. Ergebnis 92
Erhaltende Einrichtung IPK Genbank
Pflanzenart Pisum sativum L. subsp. sativum convar. sativum Lehm.
Volksname Pea
Akzessionsnummer PIS 66
Akzessionsname Marrowfat
Eingangsdatum --------
Ursprungsland Vereinigtes K
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Thanks Phil! (:
Yeah, confusing stuff - all these varieties (: Don't know if I get them over here :(
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Never heard of "marrowfat peas" before. Seems that the german translation is "Kapuzinererbsen", which are also known as "grey peas". But these are brown or grey in colour, and look more like chickpeas, while marrowfat peas look (most of the time, so it seems, per google search) more like green peas, color-wise. Wonder what the difference is.
These (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ik77/7542029454/) are Kapuzinererbsen, Chonk, and they are green ('though the pod is brown/maroon).
** Phil.
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If they do use marrowfat, i'll have to put it on the to try list. :)
I don't think that particular dish specifically calls for Marrowfat peas, as any pea will do but I think it would work quite well with Marrowfat peas big fat juicy blighters that they are :)
Isn't pease pudding and mushy peas generally made with Marrowfats?
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Isn't pease pudding and mushy peas generally made with Marrowfats?
Yes.
** Phil.
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Isn't pease pudding and mushy peas generally made with Marrowfats?
Pease pudding is made with split yellow peas, perfect for tarka dal ;)
Sorry Jerry, I didn't think this would hijack your topic.
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Isn't pease pudding and mushy peas generally made with Marrowfats?
Pease pudding is made with split yellow peas, perfect for tarka dal ;)
Beat me to it.
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These (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ik77/7542029454/) are Kapuzinererbsen, Chonk, and they are green ('though the pod is brown/maroon).
** Phil.
But is the "Kapuzinererbse" the same as Pisum sativum L. subsp. sativum convar. sativum Lehm (or Pisum sativum var. medullare)? Read they are different. But I'm no pea expert, can't judge that (:
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But is the "Kapuzinererbse" the same as Pisum sativum L. subsp. sativum convar. sativum Lehm (or Pisum sativum var. medullare)? Read they are different. But I'm no pea expert, can't judge that (:
Can't say, Chonk : that is the great weakness of common names and the great strength of Linnaean binomials... All we know is that the photographer/cultivator calls them Kapuzinererbsen, and if you were to ask him whether they were P. sativum L. subsp. sativum convar. sativum Lehm or P. sativum var. medullare, I suspect he wouldn't have a clue (and neither have I) !
** Phil.
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;D
Thanks for your effort, Phil (:
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I used to make processes peas and mushy peas at mortons food in Lowestoft in the 80's and mushy peas are exactly the same as processed but cooked in the cans for longer. Mushy peas originated from a mistake when they were cooked too long but the rebranded them as mushy peas and the idea was very popular so they continued to produce them.
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Axe et al,
sorry to disappoint - the marrow fat go in biryani rice.
i've got the masla's going in a little earlier. hence Q3 below:
Q3 what are the short fry ingredients. those added after the quench base. they defined as ingredients with some spice and or which benefit from a short fry typ 1 min.
Pre cooked Meat/Veg, Part cooked made sauces (Chilli Sauce, red Masala, rogan josh, patia, hari, nagga), Coconut Flour
i've now got to Q4 hence below:
Q4 Why does garlic/ginger go in 1st (1st ingredient after the oil) . Why not after onion or pre cooked veg.
Ginger fry adds flavour to oil. Garlic fry adds flavour but bitter if too much.
in short which is right A or B or either ok
a) cook garlic/ginger till smell
b) cook garlic/ginger till browning
i've always done "A" - does anyone have strong views eitherway otherwise i will take that it's not significant and either works