Topic: Which Oil (or Ghee) Should I Use?

[greydog]

Although I've been cooking curries for about 20 years (at home!!), I've always used KTC Pure Butter Ghee rather than oil. I assumed that this gives a more authentic taste. However loads of the recipes on here seem to use oil. Is there a definite difference or is it just personal choice? Also, can I assume 1 measure of oil equals 1 of ghee?

Thanks in advance

[Yousef]

Hi greydog,

We are trying to replicate your average indian takeaway and as cost is a driver for them Ghee is out the window, i am sure 95% of all takeaways use regular oil as its cheaper, hence thats what i use at home to cook.

I personally think Ghee adds more richness to a dish.

Oh bye the way, welcome to the forum.

Stew ;D

[brum_57]

2 points why BIR's dont use ghee. first I would imagine is as Stew stated is cost versus oil and secondly, i'm pretty sure ghee would not stand up to the very hight temperatures used in BIR cookery without burning. Sunflower oil, which seems to be the BIR's oil of choice is not only cheap but has a very high smoking temperature which is well suited to BIR cooking methods.

also - ghee is very bad for you in large ammounts after all its just clarified butter, sunflower oil has got a lot of plus points, cheap, high temp use and its one of the healthier oils around atm.

Kev.

[George]

I've always used KTC Pure Butter Ghee rather than oil. I assumed that this gives a more authentic taste.

'Authentic' perhaps, but for any attempts to replicate 99% of curry house dishes, I would forget about ghee. They may use small amounts as a sort of 'spice' for the flavour it adds but that's about all. The bulk of the oil, and a lot is used, is vegetable oil, e.g. sunflower or rape seed oil, as can be seen from huge, empty oil drums found out the back of many restaurants and take-aways.

Regards
George

[haldi]

Curryqueen and I went to a cooking demo at Bengal Cuisine, Brick Lane, London
If you want to go, here's the link
http://www.bengalcuisine.net/default1.php?id=4

We were both shown how to make a scaled down curry gravy and a cooked curry too.
In both curry gravy recipes they DID use vegetable ghee

I have never seen it used on a full sized gravy
Perhaps, as George said, they used it like a spice
If you put it in the gravy, it "sets" when it's gone cold
Definitely less healthy than oil!!

[lorrydoo]

Haldi, I did a test on a Madras sauce from the best BIR where I live.  I simply put it in the fridge over night to see if it would change the viscosity, but it stayed the same which indicates oil over ghee. 

[greydog]

Hi
Thanks to all who replied.
I'll certainly try some of my usual recipes now using Sunflower Oil instead of Ghee. ;D

Greydog

[Cory Ander]

The following links, discussing the relative merits of ghee and various oils (including olive oil) may also prove to be helpful:

Previous cr0 related threads:

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1588.msg14147#msg14147

Relevant web resources:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil
http://www.goodeatsfanpage.com/CollectedInfo/OilSmokePoints.htm

My conclusions are as follows:

• Evidence (i.e. huge cans of the stuff!) suggests that most BIRs use cheap vegetable oil (a blend) - because it's cheapest(!) and has a reasonable smoke point
• Ghee (vegetable and butter ghee) is undoubtedly used by many BIRs (tubs of the stuff are evident in most BIR kitchens), but its use is probably restricted to a few applications (such as brushing naans with butter ghee or otherwise "flavouring" dishes) due do its relatively very high cost, relatively very low smoke point, and distinctive taste
• Olive oil may also be used by some BIRs, but is not likely to be used by many because of its relatively very high cost (and relatively low smoke point - unless it's highly refined and therefore very expensive) and distinctive taste.  Its use is also not evident in most BIR kitchens
• Sunflower oil appears to be a very good compromise with reasonble cost (albeit significantly higher than the cheapest vegetable oil), high smoke point and relative "healthiness"

[SnS]

Posts moved here from Curry Tester's Base Soup + Curry by SnS

From Tamala

Ghee has just about the highest smoke point of all oils I would check out the wiki on ghee as you may actually find its a healthier option than veg oil.

Unfortunately thats wrong on both accounts.  Ghee has one of the lowest smoke points of common cooking oils and its considered to be one of the most unhealthy because of its saturated animals fats (butter ghee anyway) which is bad for forming harmful cholestrol.  Good try though CT 

From Currytester
Tamala

BIR stands for British Indian Restaurant

Ghee contains a balance of easy to digest essential fatty acids essential for healthy skin, nerves & cells.


?Ghee is sweet in taste and cooling in energy, rejuvenating, good for the eyes and vision, enkindles digestion, bestows lustre and beauty, enhances memory and stamina, increases the intellect, promotes longevity, is an aphrodisiac and protects the body from various diseases? Bhavaprakasha (16th Century Ayurvedic text)

Extolling the wondrous benefits of ghee fats may appear contradictory. We know that poor quality fats (i.e. non organic, heat treated, solvent extracted, transfatty, hydrogenated) can cause the production of free radicals that cause oxidative damage to cells. This means that poor quality fats damage our health

However, fats are essential to life. The vital substances vitamin A, D, E and K are only made available to the body when taken with fats. Fats also provide essential fatty acids (EFAs). They are essential because the body cannot make them and we need them to live. EFAs (Omega 3 and 6) are now famed for their ability to provide anti-inflammatory eicosanoids, assist with inter cellular signalling and regulate DNAs production of inflammatory cytokines. In general fats help to nourish the skin, cell membrane and hair. Fats help to protect the internal organs, maintain a healthy body temperature, store energy and nourish the brain.

Fats are divided into saturated and un-saturated fats:

Saturated fats have a bad public image as excessive consumption of them has become associated with an increased risk of atherosclerosis, stroke and coronary heart disease. There is a controversy regarding these findings as much research has not differentiated between true saturated fats and synthetically generated saturated transfatty acids. However, this is a misunderstanding of the nature of the saturated fats as some are healthy, such as ghee and coconut oil. Saturated fats are made from both short chain fatty acids and long chain fatty acids. Short chain fatty acids are easy to digest whereas long chain fatty acids are not. Long chain fatty acids are associated with blood clotting, thrombosis and cancer. So, short chain fatty acids are healthy and help to promote the production of hormones and strengthening cellular membranes.

Unsaturated fats are divided into monounsaturated fats (olive, mustard) and polyunsaturated fats (sesame, sunflower). Both are required for healthy life. Polyunsaturated fats that are not handled properly pose a health risk as their cell structure leaves many ?bond? sites that are potential sites for oxidisation to occur. Essentially this means that under the right conditions (i.e. heat, light) they can become oxidised and, when consumed, allow for the release of free radicals in the body. Sesame does not become oxidised under heat, its linoleic acid content actually improves its anti-oxidant status but hemp seed does oxidise easily under heat and light. Certain polyunsaturated fats are intentionally hydrogenated to make margarine which contains up to 40% transfatty acids. Transfatty acids are not found in nature and are associated with an accumulation of the potentially harmful LDL and the increased risk of heart disease. Also lipid peroxides (oxidised lipids) actually take up residence on cell walls and obstruct the correct working metabolisms of cells.

Why is ghee so healthy?
Ghee?s chemistry holds the secret to its health benefits. Humans need both saturated and unsaturated fats as part of a healthy diet. Ghee is made from a combination of saturated and unsaturated fats. It is about 65% saturated fat and 25% monounsaturated fat with about 5% polyunsaturated fat content. Its saturated fat is primarily (89%) made from the easy-to-digest short chain fatty acids and it contains 3% linoleic acid which has anti-oxidant properties. It also contains the fat soluble vitamins Vitamin A, D, E and K.

Because ghee has such a high ?smoke point? (485?F or 252?C) it is a very useful oil to cook with. The smoke point determines when an oil actually starts to burn and generate oxidisation and the potential of free radicals. As it has a very low oxidisation rate ghee stays fresh even unrefrigerated for a long time. Another benefit of using ghee is that the heating procedure removes the lactose content making it tolerable to those sensitive to lactose.

It has been suggested that ghee actually benefits the HDL:LDL ratio. One study has even shown that ghee can lower high cholesterol. As part of a lacto-vegetarian diet ghee offers important nutritive benefits. As a healthy oil ghee can help replace oxidised fats populating cell membranes and help the body in maintaining a low state of oxidation.

Also for your information Ghees smokepoint of 485F is only bettered by Soybean oil 495F, Safflower Oil 510F or Avocado Oil 520F

From BobbyBhuna

Ghee contains a balance of easy to digest essential fatty acids essential for healthy skin, nerves & cells.

Busted  ;D

http://www.pukkaherbs.com/file/b2671e5919ce1b2bf503ac0484fe7eb0/the-virtues-of-ghee.html

and Tamala is still right.

From Currytester
About what BB?

This is just one reference of many.

From Bobby Bhuna

About what BB?

This is just one reference of many.

I humble apologise. I should really check these things out before I post replies. I can honestly say that I am extremely surprised at the smoking point of Ghee. That is outrageous.

Knowing that Ghee comes from butter and that it's so thick compared with e.g. sunflower oil made your comment about it's smoking point seem ridiculous. However it does indeed have an incredibly high smoking point, which I'm shocked to discover is actually higher than that of sunflower oil, quoted by Wikipedia as coming in at 252 degrees Celsius.

From Currytester
BB

When I did the research I too was surprised but then I realised that there is no solids in ghee.

What really surprised me though is the risk of carcinogens in burning ordinary veg oil.

From JerryM
Currytester,

For me this is a very interesting but "tricky" subject as many people feel including myself that we are often being duped in favour of money - hence the nervousness of replies.

you clearly know your stuff and have no financial driver.

the HDL:LDL ratio effects of ghee are difficult to accept but i think not really what you are telling us -

is the summary: "the likihood of ghee killing us by heart attack is much less than burnt veg oil giving us cancer"

From Tamala

BIR stands for British Indian Restaurant

Im aware of that but cant see where you mention that in your post?  All I see is "range" and "Fahrenheit" (ie Americanisms)?  So you are trying to say that your observations are of a British (not American) restaurant then?

Ghee contains a balance of easy to digest essential fatty acids essential for healthy skin, nerves & cells.....blah, blah, blah

Butter Ghee is full of saturated fats widely recognised to raise total blood cholesterol and LDL ("bad") cholesterol (irrespective of any potential health benefits that might otherwise be claimed).  Alternative unsaturated cooking oils can lower total blood cholesterol and LDL cholesterol and raise HDL ("good") cholesterol.

Also for your information Ghees smokepoint of 485F is only bettered by Soybean oil 495F, Safflower Oil 510F or Avocado Oil 520F

Most references quote a more conservative smoke point for ghee of around 190C with a range of 190C - 250C.  Quoting 252C (that for the purest of ghee) seems to me to be selective in the extreme.  Many cooking oils surpass the lower smoke point of 190C or so (for less pure ghee).

Canola, sunflower and corn oils are examples of common unsaturated, less unhealthy oils (than ghee), with higher smoke points of around 240C.

Besides which, butter ghee is too expensive to be used extensively by most BIRs.  Ordinary vegetable oil is far more commonly used.

http://www.healthcastle.com/cooking-oils.shtml
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cooking_oil
http://whatscookingamerica.net/Information/CookingOilTypes.htm

From Currytester
JerryM

Personally speaking I was always told that anything in moderation wont hurt you.

However in this case I think a great deal more research needs to be done before I can truly answer your question.

But to avoid the issue for the time being you can use a high smoke point oil such as groundnut/peanut oil.

This could be an alternate theory to get the taste - simply we could be using the wrong vegetable oil - taking it to smoke point we assume the oil is hot enough. Having just read the back of a Vita d'or veg oil bottle it says dont heat above 360f. You could also use Light Olive oil or safflower oil.

Tamala

England is your answer.

I'm not going to get into a discussion with regard to precise smoke points of oils.
The research carried out is obviously an opinion - the major point to come out of the whole discussion really is that oil smoking may actually not be at the hot temperature you think it is and it could be a health risk as much as ghee can be.

I remember reading various chinese cookbooks that stipulate the use of groundnut/peanut oil - now I know why.

With regard to cost the discussion thread at the moment was comparing cheap and expensive restaurants and the fact that some dishes contain ghee.

[adriandavidb]

Smokenspices

In one of your paragraphs above.....

There's no such thing as a "saturated trans fatty acid", if the lipid is fully saturated there are (by diffinition) no carbon to carbon double bonds, without these no 'cis' or 'trans' isomers can exist!

I've read that there are also other factors that should be taken into consideration with regard to the relative benefits/detriments to health of various types of lipid; such as what happens when they are heated.

Irrespective of how healthy these lipds are 'cold', in general (very simplistic so appologies!) worst = saturated, better = polyunsaturated, best = monounsaturated; I understand it is not generally understood how heating effects this....

Poly unsaturated oils (e.g. sunflower) become quite nasty if they've be heated up to smoking temp, some say worse than the most unhealthy saturated fats!  I have read that oils containing high proportions of mono unsaturated oild (e.g. groundnut), in addition to being relatively healthy 'cold', suffer fewer detrimental effects with heating.  To this end I use groundnut oil exclusively for BIR and Chinese cooking, and another largely  'mono' oil: olive oil (not good in a curry), for all my Italian style stuff.

Because I'm a curry-nut, I consume quite a lot of oil, like many here I believe it's not possible to get the 'taste' without it, and however much I try to skim off after cooking, I'm sure loads gets eaten. 

So people, if anyone thinks I've got hold of the wrong end of the stick 'health-wise', with my oil choice; please let me know!!

I do use butter in my cooking, it's not possible to make a good Chicken Pollo (Italian) without adding some to the olive oil, but I try to keep it down.