Topic: Which Techniques Create That "BIR Taste"?

[Cory Ander]

Hi All,

Recently, there has been significant debate on whether it's ingredients and/or techniques (including the right equipment) that creates that "BIR taste".

Whereas I believe it is a combination of both, many people (perhaps most) seem to believe that it is mainly to do with techniques.

I would like to ask, therefore, which techiques (including equipment) do people believe are necessary to create that "BIR taste"?

Many thanks

[Ashes]

Thats an excellent question Cory, and a hard one to answer. Weve talked about this several times and didnt Darth recently write a list of things we pretty much agreed with, cant find the thread.

We are all pretty sure having a professional gas cooker helps, although Darth said hes got close with the  oven method. The order in which you add the ingrediences/spices some ppl think is important, especially as those who have seen a BIR curry made and it makes sense to copy their techniques if you are trying to replicate their flavours. Also how the base sauce is made, frying the onions or raw onions bases could also be said to be a technique.

Pete and Ray (and others) used to write long threads about their attempts to recreate the flavour. Id suggest you check those out.

Regards A

Just checked some old threads out and there is a wealth of information that somehow?s got lost over time..
Anyway heres something more recent
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=723.msg7133#msg7133

[Chilli Prawn]

I think it is a combination of technique, equipment, AND ingredients.  I also think that experience is an essential.  I did actually post my response to Darth's original thread but when I looked for it it was not there.  My local BIRs on North Island - England (when I lived there) and here (IoW) rarely use Woks, just spun/pressed steel frying pans (similar to Wok steel). 

You need a gas hob that has jets in the centre of the rings as well as sides and it needs to generate around 7 kw per ring.  When you have cooked the dish you need to put it in a warm oven or warming tray to rest.  The middle bits of the process have been well debated already, so I will not repeat.  But what I am saying is the you all have arrived at the process but I fear not quite put it all quite together yet; the combined use of stove and oven I think are essential for home cooking, and all cooked foods should really have a little time to rest (and infuse).  We use these methods.

gauisus nutrimens

CP

[woodpecker21]

hi cp
i agree with the time for the dish to rest. whenever i cook my curries i put the lid on after stirring in my first sprinkle of coriander allow to cook for 30 seconds thn remove from the heat and place in the warm oven 75degrees C which is warming the balti dishes which i serve my curries in and gently drying the rice allowing it to seperate and  every time i turn the oven it smells like i've got a takeaway in the oven. i feel that this sort of mimics the journey home from a takeaway when the curry really develops.

anyway just gonna phone in a takeaway right now so gotta go
gary

[JerryM]

an unrelated post lead me to this which i'd not previously found (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3382.0).

where i'm coming from is the "what,how and end point" - i guess the principles involved not the detail. for example 30 secs cooking time is not the kind of thing that i feel will help us all improve (we need to pin down the variables). i know that BIR chefs must cook by sight and it's what's going on in their brain whilst this is happening that i'm trying to tease out through collective thinking.

it's probably also worth pointing out (although i think obvious) "technique" is only one part of the overall jigsaw.

i feel there is a lot in this "technique" and a need therefore to break it down into chunks. so stage 1 - hot frying in oil

the what - any or all of: chopped garlic, garlic/ginger paste, chopped onion, chopped  pepper, un cooked meat

the how - pan on heat, add oil, add ingredients, fry at high temp. it appears the ingredients are normally added in the sequence of garlic or g/g paste, onion/pepper, meat. the ingredients are kept on the move by stirring constantly

end point - just to cook out the rawness (smell released). the ingredient is starting to slightly brown at the edges. it is better to under cook than over cook as it is easy to burn in the high temp oil. more cooking does not improve taste

summary

i think this stage is pretty well known and accomplished by us all and probably not an area for improvement. i don't think it matters if the oil is hot when the ingredients are added as long as it reaches high temp during the cooking ie ingredients are fried. it's questionable why all the ingredients are not added in one go.

rev 1 - further thought: is the garlic or g/g paste added early to infuse taste into the oil. if so is high heat/quick frying the right thing or would a slower frying deliver greater taste into the oil. this would explain the order that the ingredients are added.

please post any thoughts, discrepancies or alternative approaches.

will then move on to stage 2 emulsification (spice frying).
 

[JerryM]

i've revisited the malik video following Achmal's prompt. (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3382.msg30824#msg30824, malik video http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3013.0
.

i had previously been obviously mesmerised by them and clearly not focused on what's important. i think there is so much going on in the video that this is easily done and u need to watch them with a specific need in mind.

my previous conclusion was that without knowing what the ingredients are in the left of the picture, under the oven and on the out of sight serving table there was little meaningful to be gained. i still hold this view albeit that i can better guess the LH ingredients. this view was based on trying to watch what ingredients were going into each dish.

this time i concentrated on technique.

it is clear my current technique is way off theirs.

i have a stage 1 (fry raw ingredients), 2 (fry spices), 3 (evap off). they only have a stage 1 & 2. my stage 1 & 2 being combined. mine is cook on full all through - theirs is low ht stage 1 and full ht stage 2.

i also noted that the spoon is used much less than i do and mostly in a side to side action whilst mine is half and half stirring around the rim.

i now intend to follow their method and see what happens.

[JerryM]

i've tried out the malik technique and did not find the expected improvement. i rate the curries on the night poor. much easier to cook though.

i think i messed things up on the prep front which made things worse - i did not really have time in the day to do all the work as carefully as i would normally. even the base for example did not taste quite right. the pre cooked onion had too much turmeric etc

however the main thing i was after in the malik technique was smokiness. there was none at all. i even tried adding an extra tsp of paprika to the spice mix (had suspected this may be a factor) but alas it's not the key i'd hoped for.

i did feel there is advantage in the malik technique in combining the raw ingredient frying and the spice frying into 1 stage. my current method of frying the garlic/ginger paste and then onion before the spices has the effect of the oil being soaked up by the onion - which is not what u want (u want the oil in the spices or the other wayround).

on the malik technique i would say that i would in the long term want to adopt the 2 stage approach. however having managed to get smokiness using the 3 stage approach i intend to stick with it in the short term until i can sort out the consistency issue (hit and miss on the smokiness).

i'll post my observations on the malik video in the original post (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3013.0). i've not revisited the 2nd set of malik video as yet (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3102.0)

[JerryM]

had a more productive lunch today making 1 off madras curry sauce using the same ingredients that i used on Saturday's disaster.

the only changes being:
1) left out the onion
2) added water to make the base much thinner (more like what i would normally use)
3) changed technique back to my norm 3 stage (g/g paste, spices, base)
4) the spice mix and base were now 3 days old having been made on Saturday

having just said that i do not set fire to the pan anymore i ended up (not intentionally) with ignition after both the g/g paste and the spices. so i guess this was technically change No 5.
 
the resulting curry sauce was good but importantly the smokiness was back. trouble is gut feeling say's that the changes would not have made the difference. so i can only put it down to technique. i need to cook a lot more to be sure though and pin it down.

[barrie44]

hiya jerry m i have been experimenting with bir`s for about five years now.i have tried a good fifty differnt bases and copius amounts of cooking techniques and order of plays.i always seem to come back to kris dhillons`s base whilst having my own technique now taking from experience over the years.i have used high temperatures as in a hotwok in the garage and this is not necessary.having recently purchased kris dillon`s new book his new base fir me is virtually the one.also in the book is a chicken methi recipe.part of the recipe mentions frying fresh or raw methi leaves early on in the cooking process to create a toffee like taste.i have adopted this method in all of my curries and low and behold it does always give that bir toffee taste on the kitchen hob.at last i do feel i am there now at last.i have had many people try this and every feedback is that of A SUCCESFUL BIR CURRY.and at last i have made the curry that i think is the best i have tasted anywhere.if you need any more information on technique and ingredients let me know.for me this has deffinetely been a EUREKA

[JerryM]

thanks barrie44,

this is a subject which interest's me greatly. i have a difficulty here though with methi - i think i've pretty much decided that i don't like it ie the curries i don't like have it in. let me explain.

i bought the 1st KD book when it came out and used it for many yrs. the curries were a step in the right direction but alas not BIR and i'd pretty much given up on the holly grail until stumbling on this site.

i don't know what the new KD base contains but feel the bases i make are not for improving. my remaining challenge (i feel) is in technique and spice/ingredient ie recipe refinement.

i very much agree that a 10 BIR curry can be produced on a kitchen hob. the trouble for me was there was still something lacking - i know now this to be the smokiness taste (CA kindly sorted me on this as i was once a disbeliever). i am pretty much 100% sure that this smokiness taste can't be achieved without a high heat burner. i've still more to learn on the subject but given that i only managed to ac hive it when i also achieve billowings of smoke i am pretty sure a hob won't do it. it was very interesting last week when i went to my local TA. the chef was not there and as i entered there was not (what i would call) "BIR" smell as u walk into the shop. the chef on the night has a very different  "slow" cooking technique. this produced 10 quality curry but alas the smokiness of norm was not there .

now the methi. i've tried it on and off in the past but still been uncertain. i've never tried cooking it as early a u suggest mind - will try it. then recently i've really latched on to the ashoka korahi (to die for). it calls for methi so i forced myself for a while to put it in. i now leave it out.

the base i'm using is http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3462.0. i'd be very interested on your thoughts. i also use rajver, saffron and ifindforu (in no particular order - they have different uses for me). there are other good ones but i guess u get comfortable with what u make most.

the smokiness details are here http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1851.0
. i still feel i have more work here in order to refine my technique. i'm currently on a 3 stage which in simple terms is: stage 1 - g/g paste, Stage 2 emulsification (spice and puree), Stage 3 base and evap off.

would appreciate your thoughts on technique so that we can perhaps compare notes.

best wishes