I have been told by various people that the commercial cookers are capable of far more heat.
I'll have to talk to someone who uses one, or a manufacturer.

I don't think the curry gravy is kept longer than four days.
I was told that it is not refridgerated but kept in a store room.
There is definitely a curry gravy pot on the stove all evening too!
I wonder if it's left there all night?

I don't think the flavour can be reproduced at home.
I can't do it, that's for sure.
I just spent another two days holiday trying (the house smells like a restaurant again)
This argument will run forever.
I think the best you can do is add a substitute.
Stock cubes, marmite,bovril, worcestershire sauce, tomato sauce, brown sauce, garlic powder or soups are a few ideas.
Try adding a bit when you next make a batch.
In fact, I think I saw some brown sauce on a takeaway shelf, once
Hmmmmmmmmmm!

Quote from: joe2 on March 29, 2005, 06:15 PM
This topic has come up on another part of the forum.
Seriously folks, this is a very important issue. I think we should all look into it and see if its ok.
About 2 years ago, I read an article on this subject on the net, and it was frightening.
All I will say is that the doctor blamed this action for many of the woes of the western world.? This of course was only his opinion.? But if we are to be making curry a lot and for years to come, I think it would be worth clarifying.

Here's something I found:-

Alice,

I am trying to convince my good friend not to save the grease she cooks with for re-use. Instead of draining grease out of a pan after frying it, she saves and stores it to use again. It seems to me that grease that is cooked once is bad enough, twice must be horrible. Am I unjustly picking on her, or am I right that there is an even greater health risk when you cook with pre-cooked oil/grease?



Dear Reader,

Reusing cooking oil has been done for ages. There really isn't a problem, if done properly. The greatest hazard is allowing the fat to become rancid (spoiled) and deteriorated to the point it produces undesirable flavors and odors. Besides ruining what would have been a perfectly good meal, rancid oils also contain free radicals that are potentially carcinogenic.

To understand how to best re-use oil, it is important to know about smoke points ? the temperatures at which oil begins to decompose. If you heat oil to a temperature that is too high, it produces smoke fumes. Acreolin, a substance that makes your eyes burn, is given off as well.

The optimal temperature to fry foods at is 190?C (375?F). At higher temperatures, the food will burn on the outside, and at lower temperatures, the food absorbs too much oil and tastes greasy. Different oils have different smoke points. Oils with higher smoke points are better for frying. The following is a list of smoke points:

Type of Oil Smoke Point Temperature
safflower oil 265?C
sunflower oil 246?C
soybean oil 241?C
canola oil 238?C
corn oil 236?C
peanut oil 231?C
sesame oil 215?C
olive oil 190?C
lard 183 - 201?C*
(*varies depending on the diet fed to hogs and the part of animal fat that is derived)

Each time the oil is re-used, the smoke point becomes lowered. This is due to:

foreign matter in the oil (such as batter)
salt
the temperature to which the oil was heated
exposure to oxygen and light
length of time the oil remained heated
the number of times the oil was reused
Combining different types of oils also lowers the smoke point.

When oil becomes deteriorated, it appears dark and thick (viscous). It may have an off odor, and smoke appears before it reaches 190?C. If the oil smells funky and old, better to toss it away and replace it with fresh oil.

Each time the oil is re-used, the smoke point becomes lowered


This would explain why I find it harder to brown garlic using the curry gravy oil.
The garlic tends to lie there looking defiantly raw.

I've been doing a lot of cooking experiments lately and? having read Curry King's latest demonstraion post, it set me thinking.
His demo was almost identical to one I had.
I was shown curry gravy and chicken vindaloo at home.
His curry gravy recipe was nearly the same as three other curry gravy recipes I have been given or seen.

I really think we are as close as we will ever get to the flavour.
There is some reason why it is different when you cook at home.
I am (begrudgingly) happy and not searching for a missing ingredient anymore.
I will enjoy what we have instead.
Personally I still think it's a temperature thing.
The recipes we have are correct.
And more recipes , from any restaurant, will always be welcome
If you managed to cook them on a commercial high pressure gas cooker then they would be identical.
So if you still want to chase the flavour I think the only domestic possibilities lie with your microwave.
That gets really hot.
Have you noticed a microwaved reheated curry really takes on extra flavour?
I think that avenue of thought might have possibilities.
What about trying to make the curry gravy in the microwave from start to finish?
Apart from anything else, I don't want to believe, that I have been lied to.
The chefs that have helped me have all seemed really good people.
They have given up their free time to help someone, that they didn't have to.

Quote from: Curry King on March 28, 2005, 09:25 PM
One big thing was that he said scooping the oil of and reusing it was a no no for one its against health and safety regs, anyone know anything about this??

It could be about the free radical ideas.
That is a feature the oil takes on which makes it a potential cancer giver.
Chip shops use the same oil on for days, don't they?
I don't really understand.
But..........
I know that this is going on in curryhouses.
I have seen it.
Curryqueen said the oil at Bengal Cuisine fill their oil can (situated on the cooker) with oil salvaged from the curry gravy.
She was told if you want more spicy oil, then you add more at the start of making the gravy.
I have seen them do it at two places.
They dip their spoon in slightly to lift only the oil from the gravy pot.
Here is part of the recipe I emailed to people? back in October.


The Onion GravyOnions

Garlic ginger mixture
Green peppers
Tomatoes
Salt
Oil
Water

Cook the above for two hours

Spice Mix 1:-
Coriander 2
Cummin 1
Curry Powder ?
Turmeric 2
Paprika 2
Spice Mix 2:-
Cummin ?
Coriander 1


Add some of both spice mixture (2:1) and cook for another hour
Grind while the mixture is hot
This mixture is used for the following day

Bearing in mind that the quantities the restaurants cook in, you must allow for more time.
But it's really very similar to what you've been shown.
I reckon that alone concludes the theory that whatever reason we can't get the taste we're after,
is NOT because there is a hidden ingredient.
The chefs HAVE been honest
I think it is because the domestic cooker cannot reproduce the heat we want.
The best results I have got have been using the curry base with precooked ingredients with a Microwave Cooker.
Now that does get very hot!!

Nice pics
Has it got the flavour?
And how much tom puree in the base?
I can almost smell the curry from your photos
Well done

I made the sag bhaji from the curry demo.
Also prawn balti and Veg  vindaloo
Very nice
The leftovers tasted better the next day!
I bought loads of ghee on Friday for cooking experiments.
Having decided that they do not contribute to the missing flavour, I am wondering what to do with them!!

Quote from: Curry King on March 28, 2005, 02:52 PM
He did say though that you cant reproduce it at home, hes tried it before himself and couldnt get it exactly the same, he didnt really go into detail as to why but im happy that he wasn't lying or leaving anything out.

I had a chef round last September and he made me the base sauce which I posted on the in2curry site.
He turned up with the onions, tomato puree,spice mix, chilli powder.
He was ever such a nice chap.
He chopped the onions put them in the pot and added salt, water and? oil.
It boiled for for about twenty minutes then he pureed it with my hand blender.
Heat added the spice mix and tomato puree and cooked it another ten minutes.
He said to make a chicken vindaloo simply add chilli powder and chicken to the sauce.
"Is that it?" I asked
"Yes, there is nothing more." he said
The texture and look of the curry was perfect, but not the taste.
I am sure he was genuine and he took his own free time to come to my house.
In all honesty, I can say, that what he made was very similar, to what I could already produce.
Another chef told me there was no point in going to all the trouble to make the curry gravy.
You can get the same flavour using onions garlic and ginger.
He gave me a recipe which I tried and that was ok, but not with the flavour.
After reading your post ,and thinking about my chef's visit, I think for some technical reason you cannot produce exact restaurant curries at home.
I think you haven't got the heat you need.
The oil isn't getting hot enough.
The curry gravy should almost evaporate on contact with the pan.
Maybe that makes the flavour.
However, you did say it had "the" flavour a bit.
Maybe it was just too fresh?

Quote

Pete, did you put it in at the oil stage so that it fried, or later on when there was sauce so that it boiled? This can sometimes lead to a different flavour effect.

Has anyone who has been into a restaurant kitchen ever noticed two bowls of white stuff in their ingredients that perhaps you would have just assumed were both salt, but one might have been msg?

Quote

I put the msg in with the water.
So it boiled together
As for the two white bowls
I was told one was salt the other coconut.
And coconut powder does look like that.
I checked it out at my Asian supermarket

Going back to the idea of cooking in bulk affecting the flavour.
I must admit that I couldn't really see why, even though Pat Chapman had mentioned it and a takeaway chef had said so too
But..........
Assuming that you start the recipe with oil cooking garlic/ginger.
And add everything else to it.
You would have litres of oil in the pot
LITRES!!
That means anything added would be deep fried.
That would affect it considerably.
What do you think?

Quote from: Mark J on March 27, 2005, 08:09 PM
Still got the bag?

Pete, you have bought base sauces, did they have 'that taste' in them?

I ditched the bag after the cancer scare.
I also ditched all my Sudan 1 products, a couple of years ago, when there was that scare.
Now as for this base sauce.
I asked for the base sauce and I bought a Rhogan Josh at the same time.
The base sauce was not the same flavour as the Rhogan Josh sauce.
Both had "the flavour"
You could have just added pre cooked veg or meat and it would have tasted like a complete curry
I think it comes from salvaging the oil from cooked curries.
I have seen the oil being spooned back into the base pot.
I don't want it to be that but I am running out of iideas.
I spoke to a chef in Cornwall the other day.
He wouldn't give away a thing.
He kept on going on about secrets.
But he did say to see the curry gravy cooked I would have to be there for about four hours.
No way would he have let me in.
And I know his business is very slow at the moment.
I offered to pay as well.
He said even the bar staff who had been there for 18 months don't know how to do it.
They love to cloak this in mistry, don't they?