I know a good way to use the ground spices without adding oil or water, Jerry -tested and works- Finely chop the onion as per quantity needed in the recipe, pre-cook all apart from a couple of tablespoons, used to make the paste - Make a paste of the tomato puree, a couple of tablespoons of finely chopped onion (raw), finely chopped garlic & grated ginger and chilli, mix them all together well and get your pan hot, once it's hot, (you need the paste to sizzle on impact) add one to two tablespoons veg oil and throw in the tomato,onion,garlic,ginger and chilli mix and stir fry briskly for a minute or two until the onion has cooked and softened (you should notice the toffee-like aroma starting). It's important to keep the mix on the move as it can stick and burn due to the caremelising effect on the sugars in the raw onion and tomato puree.....next add your spice mix, keeping it on the move until the full toffee aroma hits you (it doesn't take very long, around 30 secs) as soon as you get the toffee smell, whack in your chicken, stir-frying it into the spicy mixture (you may need to turn down the heat until you're sure the chicken is cooked through enough, to avoid burning the spices, next in with the pre-cooked onions (they should still be warm), raise the heat again if you turned it down to get the pan back up to temp, then in with the warmed base (I never use it from cold) then continue and make the curry as you would. I never fail to get the toffee aroma this way (or the lovely orangey oil that's left on BIR plates after the meal) and if you want an extra bit of smokey flavour, char your peppers (if using).

Also when I've finished my curry, I let it sit, covered while I make the rice/sides, as the oil rises so it can be reclaimed (if you're that way inclined) or stirred back in (if that's your bag).

Thanks Issiemc

This recipe also works well with chicken tikka made using Blade's tikka recipe....delicious!

Quote from: parker21 on March 24, 2008, 02:11 PM
hi domi
but how hot is that? lol

Oh Parker! Parker! Parker! :-[ and you were so close to becoming one of my new heroes too! : ;D...Tell me, Parker....how hot do you like it? the temperature I mean! : LOL

Quotethis could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread  :

Then would it be possible for someone to set up a canteen offering hot soup and toasted muffins? ;D (I said MUFFINS, SecretSatan :   )

Quote from: smokenspices on March 24, 2008, 02:13 PM
I think that sums it all up quite nicely Domi.

SnS 

Thanks SnS....Somehow I don't feel quite so insane after all lol :

Quote from: Rai on March 24, 2008, 02:03 AM
With respect domi people (like you) being satisfied with their results is not the same as fully replicating the taste and smell of a decent bir curry is it?  

So are you saying that I (and people like me, who have posted that they get the BIR taste) don't actually know what we're talking about? Are you somehow more experienced than us? Or are you calling us liars? Does it matter that the people we have fed our curries to also say it's the same or better in some cases than BIR? Are they mistaken too? For some reason I'm fully expecting you to say that they're only saying that in order not to hurt my feelings, which if you knew Yorkshirefolk, is definitely not the case..They're honest to the bone, as it were.

Just because some people claim to have the exact smell or taste which you yourself cannot produce, does not mean that we have lower standards, it could well mean that some people are better cooks, since they can smell and taste where things are going wrong. The fact that you have had bitter bases does not mean therefore that everyone has, that's measuring people by your own standards isn't it? As I've said before, my sister can't boil an egg and she's been attempting to cook for 35 years! - let's face it Rai, the desire to  want to be a good cook is not enough to actually BE a good cook.

You argue every point, yet you have not answered why, when the general consensus is to roast spices at lower temperatures -I'm assuming any high heat would have a negative effect on the spices or their cellular make-up, otherwise the advice would be the opposite- and when most chefs advocate (again, don't ask for proof, it's well documented enough) mixing the ground spices either in water or oil to avoid burning?  Why would you then conclude that maybe the answer is to whack the heat up? Of course you need higher temperatures to cook certain things, and bhaji do have spices in them, but bhajis are cooked at a higher temperature and the spices are already in a watered-down state in the bhaji mix and so are protected, bhajis are also cooked for only a short time, and you could instantly see when the spices were burning as the bhaji would be burning too.

QuoteSurely the more we question and understand the basic food science the better off we are?  Or are you also going to disagree with that too lol?  

No, I'm not going to disagree with that. However, the best way to understand fully is to experiment yourself. You have to know your ingredients, which are the basics in cooking. Even Michelin starred chefs experiment fully with tastes and textures and cooking methods, it is from our own mistakes that we learn. After all, I know the smell and taste of burnt garlic, because I've smelt and tasted it...and I've only ever burnt it once! but if someone doesn't know that smell or taste, how the hell can I tell them via text what that smell or taste is?

QuoteDomi, i cant understand why you refuse to see the simple logic here?  If someone aint getting their pan hot enough, and never has done (because they use a piddly domestic hob and add the spices with the onions, garlic, pastes, water, etc) all their experience is maybe of bad practice.  And some people will (seemingly) never question if this is actually the correct thing to do or not or whether it can actually be done better for a good reason

I could use the same argument in reverse, Rai, if someone doesn't know whether their pan is hot enough they should experiment and find an ideal temperature to get the ideal taste from their spices for themselves. If someone has a bad palate, they're not going to be able to taste properly, and you can't teach someone a taste from your own perspective, they have to taste it themselves to know that taste according to their own palate, which is where personal preference comes into it, Rai. I see you scoff at my insistence of personal preference, but food will always come down to personal tastes, since most BIRs have their own taste, no two ever taste or look exactly the same, and we use our own personal preferences (there, I said it again ) to judge what is or is not right for our palates. The tastes we try to replicate are not the curryhouses we avoid like the plague, rather the opposite, wouldn't you agree? So how hot you have to get the spices for your own tastes is up to you...Personally I prefer to cook at a medium heat for longer than a top notch heat (where the risk of burning would be much higher, and would cause bitterness) because I like a well rounded albeit more robust flavour from my curries, and I cook my spices to suit that. Which is possibly why I have had more success than others who blindly follow a recipe to the letter each and every time they cook it, therefore replicating whatever mistakes each time and getting a lesser standard of curry at the end of it?

How easy it would be if to get a good curry all you had to do is flash fry your spices at 200 degrees for twenty seconds (I've never seen a chef checking his watch to know when it's time to add more ingredients either : ) Surely if you want to cook like a BIR chef, you have to know the ingredients like an BIR chef? The more you cook and experiment, the more used to the ingredients you become. I'll bet the first time anyone made a curry on this forum they followed a recipe to the letter, measuring out exactly the quantities needed, whereas someone who has been cooking the same recipes for years will use more "freehand" methods. I think you sometimes overcomplicate issues. A novice cook may get good results following a recipe, but over time will change or alter the recipe to suit either their techniques or understanding of the ingredients, both of which you need a practical experience of, rather than reading it from a book or a post on a forum.

Another anology I could use is yeast....yeast, it's reported, needs warmth to allow it prove more quickly, but even in a cold room the yeast will work eventually, it just takes longer for whatever chemical reaction to occur, just as you can actually bake a cake at 100 degrees, it will just take an awfully long time to cook. Just as you can burn spices at high or low temperatures, the trick is to know when they have reached their peak : unless you know that, the temperature is a moot point.

You see, when Parker21 mentions that toffee-like smell, I know exactly what he's talking about, because that's the smell I get too ;D we may get it using different methods, but the smell is the all-important focus, and I can't properly describe that smell, but once you have smelt it once, you know it forever but in order to know it, you have to smell it yourself first, experience and experimenting is everything Rai.

So can you get good results from a piddly little home cooker? ABSOLUTELY!

Does a bad tradesman always blame his tools?

I rest my case ;D

Curry making for me comes down to finding the right spice blend and techniques to suit your own tastes, Jerry. What suits me may not suit you and vice-versa. I like a fairly robust flavour, whereas you may prefer milder, more subtle tones, so we're never going to match up . For instance, I like to use the seeds from a cardomom pod, others prefer to use a whole pod, cracked. Some use alot of methi, others less, it depends entirely on your tastes, which is why I don't see that heat is a major factor in cooking spices, as long as you know how you prefer your spices to taste and cook them accordingly, which comes with experience and means experimenting until you're satisfied.

Cooking spices is like cooking onions, some prefer a more raw flavour, others prefer a more sweeter, caremelised taste. Chinese food uses intense heat, a stir fry takes only a few minutes to cook, yet with Indian food even when a restaurant is fully prepped it takes around 20 minutes to produce a final curry and that's using warmed pre-cooked chicken and a hot base sauce.

And I've never seen a chef using a thermometer of any kind or at any stage of cooking, it's all in the eye and the nose and you just can't get that from a written recipe Just as I have never seen a chef measuring out an exact half or quarter teaspoon of something....it's all done by eye.

Welcome.....I guess we'll all be gettin' Diggy wid it from now on eh? ;D

OOH! 'ark at me....I sound just like one o' them rappers off've the telly hehe shift ovver slim shady

Looking forward to trying your recipes, Diggy

Enjoy!

Quote from: Rai on March 23, 2008, 05:30 PM
My goodness, Im really surprised domi, I really am.  Most of us have been trying for years and years to emulate that and still havent got there.  

Funny, I've read posts where people state they have got the desired results.....maybe you haven't read the right threads, Rai? Apologies if that comes across a little sarcastic, but "when in Rome" as they say....

Maybe, as you seem to have all the paraphernalia, you could experiment and post your findings, hopefully with pictures to illustrate your points? I know I'd be interested to read any results. I would say, however that surely different spices take different times (if you really want to get that anal about it) even so, given that no two people may be using the exact same spices or indeed the exact same pan with the exact same heat diffusion, so it still comes down to being able to tell if and when a spice is at the peak tasting/smelling point, which only comes with experience, you cannot read it in a book or forum and you certainly can't get it from a picture. I've never yet seen a curryhouse chef using an infra-red temperature probe....they do it by sight and smell, right?

It's the same with a cake....different people get different temperatures, so one cooker may bake it quicker than another, the only way to ensure it's properly cooked is to look and feel at it....it's the same principle with spices...some brands are ground finer than others, how would you compensate for that?

Quote from: Rai on March 23, 2008, 04:29 PM

Noooooooo domi!  This question is about the minimum temperatures required to release the flavours of spices!  Its not about bl**dy "personal preference"  

Then why, when most advice is to roast at low temperatures, are you arguing that more heat is the answer? Wouldn't the general advice then be to roast at a higher temperature even if it meant reducing the cooking time? Since this is not the case one would have to conclude that lower temps and longer times are better. :

And to answer your last post, I certainly get the taste and smell of BIR. You won't get the exact same BIR aroma around the house as the smell of a takeaway or restaurant comes from a myriad of dishes, however I get the same smell from a curry as I do when I open a takeaway delivered to the house, which is the most important thing.

Quote from: Rai on March 23, 2008, 03:52 PM
Hmmmm, it seems we are not having a very intelligent debate here domi  

Are you blonde domi?  I am  

Quotebut at the end of the day people will decide for themselves whether or not to roast ground spices, use water or oil bases, air-dried, sundried or heat-dried spices, which is where the personal preference reference

But domi, this thread is supposed to be about people developing sufficient basic knowledge to make an informed decision and thereby improve their bir curry cooking experience  :

Would you have people chuck raw whole spices and in at the end prior to serving because thats their "personal preference" too domi?  :

Quoteit's horses for courses again I'm afraid

No its not domi, its about cooking bir curries and replicating them in the home kitchen  :

PMSL ;D Unfortunately for you I'm a fiery red head (at least that's what it said on the bottle :-X). Luckily for you I also have a sense of humour.


Sorry, Rai but personal taste is everything I'm afraid, otherwise we would all eat at the same restaurant wouldn't we? (I'm convinced you're blond but must admit I'm intrigued to know if "collars and cuffs" match since you seem to have at least some intelligence. )

If only it were that simple that each of us would like the same tastes, there'd need only be one base recipe, for starters! -although that might not be a bad thing, judging by available room in my freezer!- Some people may prefer a more raw flavour from their spices, others prefer a more well-rounded, roasted taste and never the twain shall meet...do you see my point? The only way to get the best from your spices is to suit your own palate....pigs and gormands seldom agree, but each is entitled to their opinion, neither side being right or wrong, whatever the majority.

If someone's idea of a fantastic curry involved a half-kilo of chilli powder, who am I to tell them they're wrong? :-[

The only way to get knowledge is to try different ways and settle for what suits you best. It still comes down to personal preference, wouldn't you agree, Rai?

Quote from: Rai on March 23, 2008, 03:38 PM

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 03:35 PM
You can't argue with personal taste, after all's said and done. lol

But I feel it is important to know if the powdered spices need to get above 100C to release there oils relatively quickly (in minutes).  If so, they need to be added (dry) to the hot oil and not after other water containing ingredients have been added (eg onions) or as a paste in water (maybe as a paste in oil instead?)

Different ways of cooking can present different tastes in the food, cook the spices to suit your tastes, some prefer to add them using water (which cooks off quickly enough over a med-high heat anyway), some prefer oil....it's horses for courses again I'm afraid.