I bet they'd say, to a man, that that's the way they were taught

If you watch normal British-food chefs on TV, sometimes the explanations for techniques they use are completely wrong (and different each time one of them tries to explain it). They often resort to folklore-ish explanations.

Meat is a prime example. Some say sealing prevents loss of the juices, whilst others state that this is complete rubbish. Tests show that it IS complete rubbish, but most still do it citing that explanation.

And seasoning meat is another one. Some say season before cooking, and others say do it after because it will cause juices to be lost. Personally, I've found seasoning before cooking gives a better flavour (British dishes, here) and doesn't cause it to suddenly turn into powder but if I forget it hardly matters.

I can't see Indian chefs being any different really

Quote from: Fat Les on June 03, 2006, 06:06 AMSnowdog......when I was a boy  :, I used to collect caterpillars and stick them in a jar with dandelion leaves  .  The smell of Ajwain seeds reminds me of the smell that would develop in the jar!    ;D .......but I've yet to find anyone who knows what the hell I'm on about!!! 

I've just gone and had a few moments with my Ajowan seeds - I hope no one was watching

I used to do that with caterpillars, but I don't remember there being any smell as such so I can't comment. However, the bag of Ajowan seeds I've got has a smell (dry) that is hovering around that of Marjoram or Oregano, but a little more aromatic or lemony. Definitely pleasant. When put in the stock whilst making the base I was first reminded of Caraway seeds, but then it turned more savoury. Also pleasant.

Could yours have got damp and gone off, do you think?

Quote from: extrahotchillie on June 03, 2006, 08:26 AM
I agree MarkJ they always taste better a few hours later or the following day, I usually make mine in the morning to be eaten that night, there is a huge diference.

This one I made seemed to turn a little bitter next day.

I've always found that a genuine takeaway doesn't taste better (as in 'more good') the following day, either, if you microwave it up. I know a lot of people say that it does, but I prefer the fresh taste by a mile. A microwaved one seems to have less overall flavour and is less aromatic, and tastes all 'wrong' (and bitter). And certainly there's an almost complete absence of  'the smell'.

Technically (i.e. chemically), 'caramelisation' does refer to a process involving sugars (not just 'sugar'), but I think we all know what cooks would mean if they said it of something they had just set fire to for a few seconds - whether it involved loads of 'sugar' or not.

There can't really be any doubt that shaking something in a pan over a strong flame so that it catches fire must mean that something flammable is being released, or that the presence of the flame isn't going to create flavours that weren't there before.

Being pedantic, though (and I'm a chemist, as I've sad before), the word 'sugar' is an extremely broad label and every single thing we eat contains something that either IS a sugar, or which can be broken down into sugars during cooking. Onions have loads of sugars and are easily caramelised without adding anything else. Spices will be little different. But you don't need to add spoonfuls of Tate & Lyle to have sugar present

I've always thought of BIR curries as if they have 3 components:

1. The main taste - the spice mix in the final cooking

2. The background taste - the depth

3. The smell - it brings everything together

It's a bit like a painting where you have the canvas, the background, and the foreground. No one element is enough and it needs the others (does that sound pretentious or what?  )

Getting the curry taste at the front end isn't that much of a problem, but Bruce Edwards' spice mix is pretty good. The same recipe sheet (and of course this site) has helped enormously with the background flavour - there's so much depth in this one compared to the Khris Dillon 'onions-only' base. And I've also got very close to getting the smell right using the base - I never clicked on before, but the base has an important part to play in that. The Khris Dillon one didn't smell very nice when you were cooking it (and did anyone notice how the ginger and garlic turns the mixture a blue-green colour if they ever tried that one?) It was also pretty bland when you used it and just had a faint savoury smell and taste, but little else.

The Ken Edwards base has a lovely smell whilst cooking on its own, and when you heat it again in the final curry cooking along with nicely browned garlic/ginger it adds a full, sweet smell that is so, so close to the real thing. VERY close The base also assists in the up-front flavour, too, so everything is closely woven together for the final curry.

I've got to try some of the other bases on this site - but to be fair (and in a nice way) they're mainly variations on a similar theme, and all of them are a long way away from the Khris Dillon one.

Funnily enough, a friend of mine at work used to work in a fast-food shop which also did curries on the side, and he said they just boil up onions with a mixed muslin bag of spices (but he didn't know which ones).

I think wetting the spices with water (or vinegar) is often used to prevent them burning too quickly. When you put them in hot oil, the water has to be driven off first before the 'cooking' begins, so it gives you time. That's why they often use pastes in recipes. If they're in oil then the oil has to heat up first - but pastes in oil often also have water in them.

It's like frying chips: the oil isn't 'boiling' as such, it is the water in the potato being driven off as steam that causes the bubbling. Only as water is lost, and the oil temperature rise, do the chips start to burn (and the oil start to smoke if you go too far).

If you put spices dry into hot oil they hit the high temperature straight away and by the time you have put the spoon down they're beginning to catch

I find you get the same effect when you add them to frying onions - as long as the onions still have moisture they spices don't burn quite so easily.

panpot, I'm new here, too. I got the Bruce Edwards stuff from the link you have also found.

If it helps, in simplified form:

Spice Mix

Coriander   8 parts
Turmeric   7 parts
Cumin   5 parts
Curry Powder   4 parts
Paprika   4 parts

I used Rajah Hot Madras curry powder when I did it.

Curry Base

A
sunflower oil   150ml
garlic/ginger puree   2tbsp
Spanish Onions   5 very large (6-8 medium)
carrots   4 large
celery sticks   2 large
radishes   6 large
lemon   1/4 whole
tomato   1 large
green pepper   1/2 medium
red pepper   1/2 medium
green chillies   4
salt   4tsp
Ajowan seeds   1tsp
Vegetable ghee   120g
Coriander leaves   1/4 whole bunch

B
tinned tomato   1
tomato puree   2 tsp
Yoghurt   1 tbsp
Spice Mix from above   3 tbsp
Turmeric   2tsp

C
sunflower oil   550mls
tomato puree   1tbsp

Heat the oil and fry the garlic/ginger until light golden. Add a handful of chopped onions and then 1L of water (this stops it spitting). Add everything listed under A, bring to the boil, and simmer for 1-1 1/2 hours covered.

Add everything under B and simmer for another 20 minutes covered.

Blend to a smooth paste and pass through a sieve (I added any unsieved material back to the blender until I got to the last blender-full).

Clean out the pot and heat the oil from C. Add the tomato puree from C and fry gently until it is all broken up and cooked - about 5 minutes.

Add the sieved material back in along with up to 1L of hot water, stir, and simmer until oil rises to the surface and it darkens a little.

Cool the pan in water and then freeze in portions of 200g.

This is just about what Bruce Edwards says - he's a little vague in places - and I found that the consistency of the gravy was spot on without watering it down (something Bruce Edwards talks about doing).

My plan was to make this in exactly these quantities and this method and then experiment next time to see what happens.

I have to say there's nothing much different there as far as the base is concerned. And I agree there seems to be something missing.

I made the Bruce Edwards base at the weekend and tried another experimental curry yesterday.

4 tbsp sunflower oil heated and then fry off a medium Spanish onion finely chopped until golden (not crispy). Add a few slices of chopped red and green pepper, then add 1 tbsp of garlic/ginger paste (50:50 like yours) and fry off until it begins to catch (a minute or two). Then add one large chicken breast cut into suitable pieces.

Fry with stirring until the chicken is picking up colour, then add 1 tbsp of the Bruce Edwards spice mix (modified with mustard seeds also included), 1/2 tsp salt, 1/2 tsp chilli, 2 tsp ground Methi leaves (I like Methi) and fry some more (I added about another 1-2 tbsp oil at this stage as it got a bit too dry (it was an experiment, remember, and I also misread/didn't read my notes and it should have been 1 tsp of the spice mix).

Then add one portion (200g) of the curry base. Cook on low heat until chicken done, then add another tbsp garlic/ginger and plenty of coriander.

I swear that the house smelled just like a curry shop - and I mean JUST like it - and the curry tasted perfect. The gravy gave it a full flavour (miles better than the Khris Dillon one which just has onions in it). I'm sure the fried garlic/ginger is key to the smell, and the quality of the gravy gives the depth I was always missing (plus it definitely improves the smell - I have a thing about that smell ).

As far as I'm concerned that's it (just about). You get a curry that easily falls within the range of those I've tasted from may various takeaways

Need to experiment with pre-cooking the chicken next - I've never been convinced about that as it is juicier when it is cooked from scratch.

I agree - maybe not with the word 'burning' but certainly some heavy frying and maybe naked flames on the food!

In spite of what some people say, there's no way that smell you get outside a curry house is caused by boiling vegetables. Not in a month of Sundays

I used ajowan seeds in a batch of Bruce Edwards' base I made yesterday and they did make a difference.

However, I wouldn't describe the raw seed smell as musty. It's a nice fragrant smell, though very 'un-Indian' by coriander and cumin standards

The base sauce made a pretty decent curry, too.