Hiya Cory

It's interesting to read your comments here and I'd just like to follow up on a couple of them as I've now finished all the cooking and experimentation I'm going to do with Khris Dillon's base sauce and Madras recipes.

Quote from: Cory Ander on November 07, 2011, 02:26 AMKris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?).

I don't think I've ever disputed that Khris's Garam Masala is Garam Masala, apart from a comment on the fairly large quantities of Cumin and Coriander it contains. What I have disputed, and fairly rigorously (and will continue to do so) is the way in which it is USED in her recipes. There's a distinct difference between what its called and how its used and I don't think many people have picked up on this - and is the specific reason I've queried peoples use of it in her recipes in this thread.

As far as I'm concerned (and nothing I've read in this thread so far makes me want to change my opinion) she's USING it as a 'Spice Mix' and not how a Garam Masala is traditionally used - and that is at or towards the END of cooking.

Example: Cooking onions. Boiled, sweated, fried and caramelised onions will all have a slightly different taste and texture and produce a slightly different flavour profile when used within a dish. The ingredient has remained the same - the onion, the difference is in HOW they've been cooked. Spices, powders, pastes and Garam Masalas are no different.

Why do I think and believe this?

1/ As I've previously mentioned, Khris's Garam Masala contains very large quantities of the two most common spices used in Indian cooking - Coriander and Cumin which constitute two thirds of the entire volume of that Garam Masala. That is NOT a typical Garam Masala mix, which in it's purest form would only ever contain 4 main ingredients, with Cardamons usually greater in quantity than the other three  - Cardamon, Black Pepper, Cloves and Cinnamon. Those four ingredients (with the addition of nutmeg) only constitute one third of Khris Dillons entire Garam Masala mix.

You would never ever add a spice mixture containing such large quantities Coriander and Cumin at the end of cooking, you would always want those spices to be cooked out/into the dish itself.

2/ Khris's recipe for standard Chicken Curry or Madras states that the Garam Masala (and half a teaspoon of ground Cumin and a pinch of ground fenugreek) be added to the dish at the HALF WAY stage of cooking. That is NOT at the end of cooking. She intends that the Garam Masala, the half teaspoon of Cumin and pinch of fenugreek be cooked into the dish itself - as any spice mixture containing such large quantities of Cumin and Coriander (as well as ground fenugreek) would need to be.

That is why I believe she is USING it as HER spice mix, regardless of what it's called, and this is clearly not substitutable with a commercial Garam Masala either.

What started all this for me was Ray's initial comment right at the beginning of the thread where he stated that if he used Garam Masala, it was only ever a pinch at the end of cooking. Straight away, Ray has assumed that in Khris Dhillon's recipe the Garam Masala should be used at the end of cooking - as it would traditionally be used. Khris Dhillon's recipe calls for it to be used in the MIDDLE of cooking, not at the END.

This was further compounded when he mentioned the dish he cooked had a 'pharmaceutical' taste to it. Well it would (and has been confirmed by my experiments on the dish) that it will indeed have a 'pharmaceutical' taste if the Garam Masala is incorrectly added at the END of cooking and not cooked into the dish by adding it earlier.

This formed the basis of my comments that I could not understand how Ray could have cooked Khris Dillon's recipe according to her instructions, yet got a taste totally consistent with the incorrect use of Garam Masala at the end of cooking.

As everyone I think has agreed, recipes have to be cooked PRECISELY according to the instructions given if your subsequent comments and criticisms on the dishes are to be reliable and useful.

Given that I still doubt Ray has cooked Khris Dhillon's recipes according to her instructions, his subsequent advice given at the beginning of this thread would appear to be unreliable. I'm new here and was looking for guidance, the first piece of information I look at turns out to be unreliable - that's not a good start is it?

All of this of course is only my personal opinion and as such I feel I'm entitled to express it.

Cheers and good Karma!

Quote from: PaulP on November 06, 2011, 04:33 PMIt doesn't matter whether Kris calls it garam masala or not. The point is it is a spice mix that won't get you a BIR taste. Why? Because it contains: Green cardamoms, cloves, black pepper, cinnamon, bay leaves, nutmeg and brown cardamoms in significant quantities.

An interesting and somewhat curious point from someone who by their own admission has never actually cooked anything from Khris Dhillon's book and yet somehow appears to know with concrete certainty, what the majority of BIR's use and don't use within their spice mixes.

I honestly thought this site was about the sharing of knowledge and experiences which hopefully lead to a greater knowledge and understanding of what everyone is trying to achieve in their various goals.

What it appears to me to be, is an entrenching leading to a defence when challenged of individual peoples opinions and views, which as a relative newcomer here is extremely disappointing to see.



Cheers and good Karma!

Quote from: Razor on November 06, 2011, 12:40 PM
Garam masala is exactly that, Garam meaning 'hot', masala meaning 'mix'  If a recipe calls for Garam Masala, then that's what it should mean.  It shouldn't mean 'curry masala' as that is a completely different beast.

Based on who's viewpoint, yours, chewytikka's or hers? The problem and confusion here I think is that Khris Dillon can call her 'Spice Mix', 'Mix Powder' 'Curry Masala' (note how there's already three and plenty more names for the same thing) whatever she want's to, it's her recipe book after all! Add in the fact that Khris Dhillons book 'The Curry Secret' was first written in 1989 - 23 years ago, long before 'Spice Mix', 'Mix Powder', 'Curry Masala' or even Garam Masala came into general use and acceptance.

By general use and acceptance, I mean by modern day standards and when Khris wrote that book, the closest convenient term for her to use for a general purpose 'Spice Mix' was probably 'Garam Masala' and that's probably the reason she used it.

Quote from: Razor on November 06, 2011, 12:40 PM
Kris Dhillion is a well established author and restaurateur of 30+ years, I don't believe that she has made such a fundamental error in a required ingredient.

I don't think she has for the reasons I've already given. In my opinion the errors people have made are in the interpretation of her recipe ingredients and instructions for using them. It's not as if she's asked you to use a pre-made commercial Garam Masala mix - she's given the exact ingredients and quantities included in the Garam Masala she's asking you to use in her recipes.

Quote from: Razor on November 06, 2011, 12:40 PM
Kris asks us to use garam masala because that's exactly what she wants us to use.

Yes, but she wants you to use HER Garam Masala as detailed in the ingredients section of her book. At no point does she ever state 'Go grab any old bag of Garam Masala and shove that in my recipes'.

Quote from: Razor on November 06, 2011, 12:40 PM
She doesn't ask us to use garam Masala, hoping that we know that she really means 'curry masala'  AKA, mixed powder, spice mix, spice blend, base spice, and even curry powder.!

She doesn't have to! She's already detailed the precise ingredients and quantities in her Garam Masala she wants you to use. Your misinterpretation is in thinking that her Garam Masala is interchangeable with what you've become accustomed to understand as 'Garam Masala'.

Quote from: Razor on November 06, 2011, 12:40 PM
If I was publishing a recipe which called for chilli powder in it but I really meant paprika, I wouldn't assume that everyone would know this before hand, it doesn't make sense.

What doesn't make sense, is you thinking Khris's Garam Masala is interchangeable with what you've grown accustomed to understand it to be - something you add at the end of the cooking process. You clearly demonstrate this thinking in your second post in this thread -

Quote from: Razor on April 24, 2011, 10:46 AM
Personally, I would move away from using Garam Masala in such quantities.  It is very pungent and has a tendency to over power dishes.  If I do use it, I use only a little pinch at the very end of the cooking, and stir it through.

And again here -

Quote from: Razor on April 24, 2011, 10:46 AM
I realise that Khris doesn't really use a "spice mix" as such, aka; Spice blend, curry masala, mix powder but maybe you could replace the Garam masala, and ground cumin with 2 tsp of spice mix.

Khris does use a 'Spice Mix' it's called 'Garam Masala, the contents of which is detailed in her ingredients section! And yet above, you're still trying to argue not only that Khris doesn't use a 'Spice Mix' as such, she has no right to call it Garam Masala', because it doesn't fit in with what YOU want and think it should be!

In recent posts you said this -

Quote from: Razor on November 05, 2011, 10:34 AM
I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes.

And this -

Quote from: Razor on November 05, 2011, 02:08 PM
No, I'm aware of how Kris intends us to use GM in her recipes, and like I said, I think it pretty unusual.

Yet earlier in the thread you stated virtually the opposite!

Confused? Yes I am, but I'm sure you've got a rational explanation, you seem to have plenty of those 

Cheers and Good Karma!

Hi there chewytikka

Thanks for your views on this, as Ray said earlier, it stimulates debate and discussion.

Firstly, I think I did mention in a previous post that I was not defending Khris Dillon here - I was defending a method - that method being, that you MUST cook out a recipe exactly as the recipe is described before you can start modifying it or even passing judgement on it in a critical way.

Quote from: chewytikka on November 06, 2011, 01:26 AM
basically the fundamentals are missing, No mixed powder, G&G, or tomato puree.

Okay you've stumped me a little here, what are you referring to by 'no mixed powder'? I assume you're referring to the 'Spice Mix' or 'Curry Masala' as some call it that BIR's use? This is really what prompted my comments in this thread to begin with! Khris Dillon calls her 'Spice Mix' Garam Masala! So how can you say she doesn't use one? She just calls it by a name you and others have usually associated with something else.

No Garlic and Ginger or tomato puree? Did you actually read the recipe for her base sauce? Clearly not because that contains those exact three ingredients you're claiming she doesn't use!

Quote from: chewytikka on November 06, 2011, 01:26 AM
Then there's the use of garam masala and cumin in everything

As I said previously, the 'Spice Mix' or 'Mixed Powder' as you refer to she calls Garam Masala, she doesn't used Garam Masala in the more conventional way most of us associate it with - at the end of cooking. You'll notice with her recipe for basic Chicken Curry and Madras Garam Masala goes in half way through cooking, that's not using Garam Masala in the traditional sense 'stirred in at the end of cooking' and her Garam Masala uses far too high a percentage of Cumin and Coriander to be considered and used in a conventional way. I originally estimated the Coriander and Cumin % of the total volume to be about 40% having actually made it I can revise that estimate up to about two thirds the total volume.

Quote from: chewytikka on November 06, 2011, 01:26 AM
and get this, a BIR Korma without Coconut! I don't think so. Her CTM, is her chicken curry with only Paprika and Cream added, no mention of Almond, Coconut, Sugar or even Tandoori Masala.

I can't really comment on these dishes as I've not cooked or tasted them. I've looked at the ingredients and agree some of the omissions are curious, and all her dishes appear to follow a fairly formulaic pattern with only small additions or omissions in ingredients according to the dish. Her overall flavour 'profile' is clearly coming from three things 1/ the base sauce; 2/ the precooked meat and 3/ the spice mix she uses or Garam Masala as she calls it. Personally, I don't really see how that's too far from the methods most BIR's would use.

Quote from: chewytikka on November 06, 2011, 01:26 AM
IMHO I don't think Kris Dhillon should be recommended to new members as a route to learn how to replicate BIR style curries. A total waste of onions.

Well that's your opinion of course and as such you're perfectly entitled to express it.

However, given what you've written here (and I can only go on what you've written, so please correct me if I've assumed or interpreted anything incorrectly) you don't appear to have fully understood Khris Dillons cooking methods or use of ingredients. You claim she doesn't use 'Mixed Powder' when she clearly uses a spice mix she calls Garam Masala. You claim she doesn't use garlic, ginger or tomato puree when clearly she does in conjunction with onions in her base sauce. You complain about her use of Garam Masala when you've incorrectly understood her use of it. And finally, you've never actually bothered to cook out any of her dishes or tasted them and on that basis you claim her book shouldn't be recommended to beginners? I find it quite hard to understand exactly how you can come to that conclusion to be honest!

Quote from: chewytikka on November 06, 2011, 01:26 AM
Getting back to your curry, it doesn't look like a Madras because it isn't

Well thanks for that! Reading the above paragraph rather suggests you're perhaps not in the best position to be able to judge whether it does or doesn't. As far as I'm concerned, it looks and tastes pretty similar to most 'run of the mill' BIR Madras's I've tasted in the past, but then my 'Holy Grail' isn't to create 'run of the mill' BIR's. My reason for cooking it was to understand why people were complaining about her Garam Masala and it's clear to me that some of the people doing so may have misunderstood and misinterpreted her recipes and instructions for cooking them - just as you appear to have done.

Cheers and good Karma!

Ray

Quote from: Razor on November 05, 2011, 02:08 PM
Plenty to debate here, which is great for the forum.

Absolutely!

I cooked out Khris's Madras recipe this afternoon - to the letter and I'm happy that all stages were cooked correctly with all the specified ingredients in the correct quantitites. I now have 4 jars of various Garam Masala mixes, all marked up as to what they are fortunately!

My first impression of her Madras was one of over-powering saltiness. This might just be me, because I do have a reputation amongst my culinary friends of being a bit of a 'salt Nazi' in other words I don't like using much salt in my cooking and because of this my taste buds have probably re-tuned themselves to a lower salt tolerance.

When I do use salt it's usually high grade sea salt and often smoked, so to use bog standard chemically processed salt in the quantities Khris specified was a bit too over-powering for me, which was a shame because it spoilt the dish and I was barely able to taste anything out apart from salt!

Having said that, I didn't find the Garam Masala over-powered the flavour (probably because of the salt!) but I won't really be able to say until I've cooked it again and dialled back that salt content. My other observations were that for my taste it could do with a bit more ooomph in the chilli department so next time I'd probably up the chilli to a teaspoon and a half and may even add some fresh chopped green finger chillis at the same time as the fresh coriander as well as perhaps some fresh lemon juice to give it some extra zing.

I can well understand why for many people Khris's Madras is a step towards BIR Nirvana for them, but until I've cooked it again with the above modifications it's hard to be objective about it.

I took a photo with my pilau rice to show how it came out and only ended up eating half that bowl for dinner, I'll see if it enhances overnight when I eat the other half!

Cheers and good Karma!

Paul

Thanks for taking the time and effort to make the dish and share your experiences of it. As I said previously, I tend to make a lamb madras from it and let it cook out slowly over a couple of hours and I find the finished result to be lovely.

The base does have quite a raw and violent chilli heat to it if you taste it on it's own but as the author of the book rightly points out - it is intended to be used in conjunction with other ingredients and will taste a bit odd on it's own!

I like the fact that the grated creamed coconut tempers the heat of the chilli's and rounds out the flavour, particularly when it's cooked over a long period of time. I assume you added the grated coconut at the same time as the sauce?

I've also found that the longer the base and finished dish stand for (in other words over night or frozen) the more developed the taste becomes.

I've used the Northern Base Sauce for a number of dishes - mostly the Chicken Masala and I think it works extremely well in that dish - the addition of julienned green peppers at the end really lifts that dish.

I cooked out Khris's Madras this evening and I'll be reporting my findings on that in the other thread.

So, not as positive as perhaps my experiences of Mridula's Madras recipe but perhaps not a total disaster either!

Cheers and good Karma!

Quote from: natterjak on November 05, 2011, 10:18 AMHi Sok. Thanks for your reply. I appreciate the difference between room temp and fridge temp but my point is the meat would only rise to room temp After it defrosts. So this doesn't seem to bE a reason not to defrost at room temp And subsequently pit into the fridge.

Hey Natterjack!

The problem is, as I mentioned, the bacteria in/on frozen meat become dormant when it's frozen, as soon as the temperature begins to rise, as it would on a piece of meat defrosting in the kitchen, they become active again. You then put the meat back in the fridge and those bacteria are now active on the meat and will make it go off faster within the fridge than if you'd not allowed them to become active!

Defrosting frozen meat in the fridge does not raise the temperature on or around meat at any point that allows the dormant bacteria to become active and therefore the meat will (should?) last longer in the fridge before going off.

Cheers and good Karma!

Heya Paul

Whenever I've made the Madras base it's always made 2 1/2 pints of base as I put it into 5 x 1/2 pint pots. She specifies adding 2 pints of water and simmering with a lid on, so with the other ingredients for me when pureed down it's always made 2 1/2 pints. You can follow her exactly if you like and split whatever base you end up with into 4!

In her Madras recipe she also specifies 675g of meat for 4 whereas I tend to use less than this and get 3 portions out of it as I prefer a bit more sauce and I tend to cook lamb rather than chicken and cook it for a lot longer.

I've always found her 2-3 tsps of chilli powder to be conservative and doesn't produce a very hot dish but then I blend and grind my own chilli powder which tends to be hotter than bought varieties and I adjust this by not adding more than 1-2 at the base sauce stage and then adding more when actually cooking the Madras dish itself after the onions are cooked.

Only you can know how hot your chilli powder is and if you want a mildish one I'd suggest perhaps adding 1-2 tsps at base sauce stage, cooking out the Madras and tasting at the end, if you want it hotter add a little more chilli powder and cook in the chilli for a further 5 mins or so.

I'll look forward to your views on this but I must admit I think it works best slowly cooked with lamb for a couple of hours or more.

Do try the Chicken Masala recipe on page 75 as I think that dish is fantastic!

Cheers and good Karma!

Heya Ray

Thanks very much for giving your opinions on this.

Quote from: Razor on November 05, 2011, 10:34 AM
As you say, GM is generally added at the end of the dish, added any earlier, usually results in the GM's pungency being reduced if included at the 'hard cooking' stage.

Could it be that we're 'assuming' that Khris's Garam Masala is added at the end, when in reality it's actually being used as a generic 'Spice Mix' in conjunction and alongside the other spices she specifies within the dish? She specifies that the Garam Masala is added along side the Cumin and Fenugreek almost exactly at the half way stage in cooking - after 5 mins, the dish then get's cooked out for another 5 mins before being ready. It's not as if it's being added right at the end and simply stirred in without any further cooking time as per more conventional Garam Masala use.

As you rightly point out, if the Garam Masala is added as part of the cooking process it's pungency would be reduced, yet you still felt it overpowered the dish and made it taste pharmaceuticial?

Quote from: Razor on November 05, 2011, 10:34 AM
Most of the ingredients in GM are a fair bit more expensive than the ingredients you would find in a 'curry masala', so why does Kris ask us to use GM, in the way we would use Curry Masala?

It's a good question. But it's clear from her use of Garam Masala that that is her 'Spice Mix' or 'Curry Masala' if you prefer as none of the other ingredients in it apart from Cumin feature at any other stage of her basic 'Chicken Curry' or 'Madras' recipes. It's not unusual for all of the ingredients (perhaps with the exception of Black/Brown Cardamon) found in her Garam Masala to feature at some point in most Indian dishes. Perhaps she needs or feels the need for those flavours to feature somewhere within the overall flavour of the dish and by adding them in relatively small quantities in the her 'Spice Mix' and then used in small quantities of Garam Masala within each dish is the most cost effective way of her achieving that. I'm convinced in my mind that the use of Black/Brown Cardamons is due to cost cutting as they're cheaper than Green ones and contribute a very similar if slightly 'less refined and earthier' flavour. 1 teaspoon of whole Green Cardamons is not huge when you consider it also has 1 tablespoons (3 teaspoons) each of Coriander and Cumin in it! A teaspoon of whole cloves and half a small nutmeg isn't huge either when considered as part of the overall volume.

Quote from: Razor on November 05, 2011, 10:34 AM
To me, it doesn't make sense (in a restaurant environment anyway) and it does seem  that Kris is attempting to  give her dishes a flavour that you wouldn't have found in any of her restaurants?

Do any of us truly know exactly what the ingredients and proportions of them are in these highly secretive 'Spice Mix's' or 'Curry Masala's used in BIR's? There's a thread at the moment by Whamsy asking this specific question - and none of us can really give him the answer. What he does know is, the 'Spice Mix's he's used in substitute of the secret recipe obtained from his local BIR does not give him the same results.

It's difficult therefore I think to reject Khris's Garam Masala 'Spice Mix' as being wrong, when we don't really know what commercial BIR's actually use.

Just my own personal opinion and speculation of course!

Cheers and good Karma!

Quote from: Phil (Chaa006) on November 05, 2011, 09:59 AM
All very interesting observations, Spiceyokooko, and I thank you for drawing them to my (and our) attention; I shall clearly have to re-visit KD with a freshly-made batch of authentic KD g.m. !

Heya Phil

I'm also going to have a crack at Khris's Madras and also probably like you I'm reluctant to invest in a freshly ground Garam Masala mix specifically for her dishes that I may or may not like! But I do feel it's integral to her spicing and will therefore have to do it.

I also note in her book a couple of things -

1/ In the weights and measures section she uses 'slightly rounded' spoonfuls unless specified as being level;
2/ She pre-cooks her chicken in the first stage base sauce (onion/garlic/ginger/salt puree) and this will obviously add to the texture, depth of flavour and tenderness of the chicken. This is why in her Madras recipe she specifies approximately a 10 minute cook time.

Out of curiosity, did you precook your meat as per Khris's instructions and then cook the final Madras dish for the time she specified - approx 10 mins and still found the amount of sauce used (per weight of meat) to be insufficient?