Paul

I haven't misunderstood a single word you've written, but you've not listened to or taken on board a single word I've said.

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 10:23 PM
If you know how to do something, you don't necessarily need to understand why...

This is just nonsense!!!

This does not help people coming here and and trying to learn how to cook BIR curries does it? Isn't that what this forum is for? To help people replicate that taste and flavour that these BIR Chef's manage to do so easily yet we all struggle to emulate? It's exactly this kind of misinformation that confuses people and makes them want to give up? You and others may know instinctively how to caramelise a base sauce in a non non-stick pan, but how does that help anyone else? It's exactly this kind of arrogant 'know it all' attitude I object to.

This for me and I'm sure many others like me could prove a real breakthrough in them achieving what they've been searching for and all you can do and say is, ...you don't necessarily need to understand why... ...and this topic's off thread?

This is the first time since I've been on this site that I've ever seen any explanation from anyone as to why BIR chefs use aluminium pans and why, and not just that, coming from someone (Julian) who got slated at the beginning of this thread for some of the ingredients he uses in his curries when no-one had even tried them!!!!!

Plenty of people slated his (Julians) Bhuna as looking nothing like a Bhuna, despite Julian explaining that, that's what his customers like and that he sells more Bhuna's than Madras's! I remember someone telling me early on here my Madras didn't look like a Madras, what the hell does it matter what a dish looks like as long as it tastes right? It's nonsensical!!!!!

As far as I'm concerned you couldn't make this up really it's so rediculous. And yes you have wound me up and I'll admit I'm now getting pretty annoyed.

Quote from: ELW on December 22, 2011, 07:45 PM
Hi all, Im going to stay off topic then hopefully bring it back.. I made the remark to try and clear up(in my own mind!!) some information on posts which were possibly conflicting of which there are lots on this site..it's a forum right??

You would think it was a forum for asking questions, discussion and clarification wouldn't you? And yes there's an awful lot of conflicting information, one of the biggest hurdles many new members have to get over.

It's no wonder so few new members ever dare to post or ask a question given the behaviour of certain 'formumistas' who seem determined to stifle discussion and only want their own opinions and views to dominate.

Look at your post, 'I'm going to stay off topic and bring it back' Good god - discuss what ever you want to!

Quote from: haldi on December 22, 2011, 06:23 PM
This was covered with the Taz base thread, by Mick (curry barking mad)

No it wasn't, and if it was please point me to the Taz base sauce discussion where aluminium pans are used specifically for the ability to caramelise the base sauce.

I also don't recall Julian from Curry2Go in Chorley using Taz's base sauce  :

Paul

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
I do wish you would stop telling me what I already know e.g. what caramelisation is.

There are other people who read this thread apart from you Paul, perhaps they might benefit from this information, despite you already knowing everything there is to know already?

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
This forum is now quite vast and I can tell you that the subject of pans has been discussed from time to time but I don't have time to look for you to provide the links.

Well I've read all the threads discussing pans and there's nothing in any of them that refer to their ability for base sauce 'caramelisation' and that's one of the primary reasons for why they're used in a BIR Kitchen. I've seen plenty of discussion about the ideal size, and a question or two asking 'why an aluminium pan' but surprise, surprise - no answer. But you know don't you Paul, because you know everything.

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
Not everybody will come rallying to this thread to tell you what pan they use because 1) it is off-topic and should be a new thread or a old thread brought up again

Can you please explain to me exactly why it's off-topic? The last time I looked the title of this thread was New Video's From Curry2Go in Chorley. Given that one of the said videos contains a tip from the Julian with regards to the type of pan used in BIR kitchens, I'd suggest to you that it's very much on topic, regardless of what you might think, but then I'm forgetting, you know it all don't you?

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
you are slightly confrontational bordering on insulting at times to members of cr0. (questioning cooking skills, mocking other discussions etc

And I will continue to be so too. I will always challenge established wisdom regardless of whose ego's might get bruised in the process because that's the way you strip away the wheat from the chaff and get to the truth. I'm only interested in truth and knowledge, I don't give two hoots for peoples egos.

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
I think you miss the fact that lots of people on this forum cook very nice curries that they are happy with but some of us are after a little extra and that is the hard bit to achieve.

I miss nothing. What I do know is, there's a small bunch of 'forumistas' that have been here a while who seem to think they know it all, you being one of them and when anyone dares to challenge their collective established wisdom, they throw their toys out of the pram with comments like ...this is off topic, ...start a new thread and ...I won't continue to discuss this. Who cares what you want Paul? Perhaps other people here (yeah, god forbid, there's other people here apart from you!) that might actually find this information useful to them? And do actually want to discuss it? Heavens!

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
You don't need to understand anything for this malarky

Absolute rubbish! Once again you pin your own standards on everyone else. You might think it beneath you to understand the actual processes involved - but plenty of other people do want to understand them and discuss them. The Curry Universe does not revolve around you Paul and I don't care how long you've been here, how long you've been cooking curries or how much you think you know. This forum is for collective shared information for everyone to participate in - not just you!

Quote from: PaulP on December 22, 2011, 02:39 PM
If you want to talk about pans please start a new thread or find an old one and resurrect it, and I won't continue to discuss this in this thread.

Then don't discuss it - let others discuss it, you don't have to participate in every thread Paul, I think we'll survive for once without your omnipotent and omnipresent input!

More like another person trying to cash in on it.  :

Quote from: PaulP on December 21, 2011, 10:08 PM
You won't get caramelisaton by just boiling - the blended onions have to touch the hot metal pan.

Paul

No you won't, boiling is simply removing water from the sauce and concentrating down the liquid, caramelisation is removing the sugars from the onions and burning them by heat. Two different things - two different flavours.

Quote from: PaulP on December 21, 2011, 10:08 PM
You stated that so few seem to understand the difference between caramelisation and reduction but the only evidence you have for this is a lack of response on this thread?.

The only evidence? Do you not think that if this is such a fundamental 'technique' to achieving such an important BIR type flavour that the subject of what type of cooking pan is essential to achieving it would have been discussed at some length? If there is such a discussion, please feel free to post the link to it, I'd be fascinated to read it.

I've read thread after thread about various base sauces and various mix powders with to be honest, very little difference between them. And these are discussed at length ad infinitum! Yet the importance of the type of pan to be used is so basic, no-one bothers to discuss it?

Quote from: PaulP on December 21, 2011, 10:08 PM
As I implied you don't need to know the science, you just need to do it correctly. Try watching chewytikka cooking his madras on the video - he knows the technique.

Does he know the technique, or is it purely by accident because someone told him he has to use that type of pan to achieve the results he's looking for without explaining why?

The proof of the pudding so to speak is in the eating. Let's see how many forum members come forward and state categorically that they use that type of aluminium pan, fully understand the reasons for why they need to use it and also achieve the results of base sauce caramelisation and that smokey, sweet flavour it produces.

I'm genuinely fascinated to see exactly how many people come forward!

Cheers and Good Karma!

Welcome James.

I remember those Vesta curries with the odd sprinkling of sultanas in them, yeeeurk! That brings back memories! As a kid I was my mums 'experimental curry taster' - the stuff she used to come up with! I learnt so much about cooking from her though, she's gone now bless her, but not forgotten.

I had my first 'northern curry' in Leeds recently in Akhbars I think it was called and I was quite impressed, most of my Indian Restaurant Sojourns have been down south. It's definitely a different 'taste' up north.

I look forward to reading some of your contributions.

Welcome.

Be interesting to hear some of your views on some of the other spiced dishes of the world - personally I'm particularly fond of Thai Curries.

Cheers and good Karma!

Quote from: PaulP on December 21, 2011, 07:05 PM
I believe the best tools are the bare aluminium pan and the steel serving spoon, like most BIR chefs use.

Why though? For the reason Julian gives? I've got a carbon steel wok, but don't use it for indian dishes, I find the temperature too difficult to control and keep stable - it's too thin and gets too hot too quickly.

Is it a coincidence that Julian recommends the aluminum pan as one of the 'tips' and also states that all BIR chefs use them as well as feature in every video I've ever seen? I think not.

Quote from: PaulP on December 21, 2011, 07:05 PM
I've known about the "caramelisation theory" as I'm sure others have on here probably since I cooked using the Taz base and method. The method utilises a particularly oily base that is reduced hard and fast while all the time it is continually scraped off the pan sides and bottom and remixed back in with the more runny sauce. This method definitely produces a sweet smokey taste.

But you're not using an aluminum pan, how do you know it's working in the same way? I'm currently using the Taz base for my current batch of experimentation and I'm adding the base in three 100ml batches and reducing each one down, but still not getting that elusive 'smokey' flavour. That's because caramelisation and reduction as I stated in my previous post produce two different flavours. Reduction concentrates a flavour, caramelisation extracts sugars from the onions and burns them producing a sweet, toffee, smokey flavour. Exactly the flavour missing from my dishes.

Quote from: PaulP on December 21, 2011, 07:05 PM
You are correct it is an important observation (caramelisation of base) but I suspect a lot of cooks achieve the effect without thinking about it just by watching loads of BIR videos and copying the technique as best they can.

Using an aluminum pan and the same ingredients that Julian advocates? I think you're giving people too much credit here in my opinion given that so few appear to understand the difference in flavour produced between caramelisation and reduction, let alone what differences a different material pan might produce. Does onion caramelisation produce the same results and flavour when produced in a non-stick pan, a carbon steel wok, an aluminum pan or stainless steel one? What about seasoned steel/iron or cast iron?

It's just my opinion of course and I'm not stating categorically that it's the right one for everyone, but for me and my cooking this is quite significant. I'll be testing this theory out as soon as possible after Christmas is out the way and things return to normal.

Cheers and Good Karma!

Quote from: ELW on December 10, 2011, 04:43 PMJulien from c2go mentioned 'caramelising' the cooked base in the pan, almost burning it to produce a flavour, which is a term i'v never heard on here regarding the pureed base. could he have been meaning the reduction of the 1st ladle?

Hi there ELW

I'm surprised no-one else contributing to this thread has picked up on your comment here, because for me, this represents one of the most important new pieces of information I've picked up on this site since I've been here. This could well turn out to be the final piece of the jigsaw I've been looking for.

I've been convinced in my own mind for a long time now that the final 5% does not exist in ingredients. BIR's do not have access to special ingredients we don't have access to - they're all commonly available via websites or specialist/wholesale Asian grocery stores. What does and can vary quite considerably (and you only have to look at any random forum post for this to be confirmed) is what people do with those ingredients and how they cook with them. Julian even confirms this in one of his videos - it's 50% ingredients and 50% technique.

I've now read this forum post from beginning to end and it beggars belief how posters can ignore something as important as this and go off at a tangent arguing the toss over chip fat oil!

It's patently obvious I think that this Julian chap knows what he's doing - you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time - he wouldn't stay in business if he was producing dross dishes that didn't taste right. People wouldn't buy them and they wouldn't come back. If he says he uses seasoned oil from frying onion bhaji's in, then that's exactly what he does and uses in his kitchen. Whether this is standard BIR technique used throughout the industry is totally irrelevant - it's what he uses.

Quite why posters will then argue that for them this isn't the answer or refer to this practice as that old chestnut, I find extremely hard to understand. They don't feel it's the right answer for them, probably because they might be missing something else - that's not to say that fried onion bhaji oil should not be included in the list of key ingredient's.

Going back to your comment about caramelising the base sauce in a non-stick pan, I don't believe he's referring to a reduction of the first ladle of base. A reduction will produce a concentration of flavour from the base sauce, caramelisation will produce a sweeter, smokey flavour from the base sauce - two quite distinctive flavours. He's deliberately allowing the base sauce to caramelise or burn slightly on the bottom of the pan to create this flavour.

The dishes I've always produced have always been missing that smokey, sweet flavour, and given that I've always used an old non-stick pan for producing my dishes I can't help wondering if for me this could be the technique I've been searching for to give me that final 5%.

I'm interested in hearing others thoughts on this and what kind of pans they use to produce their dishes.

Cheers and Good Karma!