Quote from: Stephen Lindsay on January 04, 2012, 06:24 PM
I do know however that if I have been making curries and I enter the kitchen after a period of being outside then it is exactly the same hit that you get walking into a takeaway. Is that the smokey or toffee smell? I'm not sure but I do know that I like it!

Stephen

The smell you're getting that reminds you of a BIR Restaurant/Take Away is a product of frying spices in garlic/ginger/onion puree and particularly the use of fenugreek whether in ground or dried leaf form. That's the smell you get from the indian dishes you cook and the one that lingers in the air afterwards, but it's not the flavour/taste I'm referring to. Bear in mind we're more sensitive to smell than we are to taste.

The smoky/sweet flavour I'm referring to is a hard one to describe or define but it's one that predominates in BIR dishes that many of us struggle to achieve at home and for many constitutes that final 5%.

My experiments at achieving it have centered around the initial frying stage of garlic/ginger/onion puree and spices at different burner flame levels and speed of frying. I've switched from a standard aluminium non stick frying pan on a standard burner to an uncoated thin carbon steel wok used on a wok burner.

The hotter the flame and faster I've cooked the initial stages of the dish, the closer I've come to achieving that flavour but I'm still not 100% there yet. I'm therefore convinced that it's at this initial frying stage where it's produced and not at the introduction of the base sauce or necessarily the makeup of the spice mixture.

I've accepted Cory Ander's view and experiments on replicating the flavour using a high flame burner as this ties in logically with one of the main differences between commercial BIR kitchens who use high flame burners and the general limitations of a home kitchen. However, I also believe the flavour can be produced in a home kitchen by using a higher flame and faster cooking speed using standard gas burners.

But for anyone using an electric hob, I'd say they were wasting their time - they just don't get hot enough fast enough and are far too difficult to control heat wise.

Hi there Andy

It's a very good question and one I've been trying to find the answer to for some time as it's the one flavour missing from the dishes I make I just can't seem to be able to achieve and for me constitutes that missing 5%.

I know exactly the flavour you're referring to, but it's hard to describe.

There was an interesting discussion on this very topic I raised here -
https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=6318.msg65981#msg65981

Unfortunately it's long and convoluted and with plenty of fluff, but it's worth reading if you're determined enough to try and replicate this on a repeatable basis.

Unfortunately, despite what others might try and tell you to the contrary, currently there is no easy or conclusive definable answer as to how to achieve this particular flavour, assuming of course we're both referring to the same one.

I've recently run a few tests on dishes I've made, proving or disproving certain theories I have on what's producing it, and I believe I'm getting closer to achieving what I've been looking for.

However it's not reliable or conclusive enough for me to be able to give any details on what might produce it, given how savage the dogs here can be on anyone who dares to post an honest opinion that might possibly conflict with their own.

What I will say is, I believe this particular flavour is achievable in a home domestic kitchen when using the right ingredients and cooking techniques.

I wish you well in your search for achieving it.

infindforu

I find all your posts to be extremely helpful in understanding how a typical BIR might 'layer flavours' together. What would be even more helpful in understanding the method would be a post on how you might incorporate all of your recipes together into a single dish. Eg. these precooked onions, your gravy, precooked meat, mix powder etc.

Keep them coming, your posts are very helpful.

MrM

Very interesting.

He added what looked like Garlic/Ginger paste and tomato paste to a hot pan? Then added the spiced oil? Did he fry the G/G Tomato paste mixture at all before adding the spiced oil? How long did he fry this for?

Three things spring out for me: 1/ The quantity of fenugreek leaves used, 2/ The use of spiced oil at the beginning and at the end and 3/ I'd guess the white powder at the end would be salt, it's unlikely to be onion, garlic or fenugreek I would think.

Quote from: curryhell on December 30, 2011, 07:16 PMSuffice it to say i do like most members here have an opinion but from the threads i've read  to which you've contributed, you're really not interested in anybody's other than your own.

On the contrary, I'm very interested in others opinions that I believe have merit. I will however continue to challenge other views and opinions I consider to be either incorrect, based on misinformation or simply dogmatic. I also expect people to defend their views with logic and reason rather than simply..."I saw Abdul the BIR Master Chef do it and I'm copying him".

If you don't like my views, opinions or how they're expressed - please don't read them or respond to them.

Quote from: 976bar on December 30, 2011, 05:36 PM
Spicey, you seem very apt at telling everyone what they are doing wrong in you're opinion

No, I've merely expressed an opinion with regards to a methodology of ensuring spices are used as fresh as possible. I don't recall telling anyone anywhere that what they're doing is wrong. But please point out where I have.

Quote from: 976bar on December 30, 2011, 05:36 PM
...or having a fantastic opinion on how things should be cooked or spices stored, whether it be fresh and grinded or pre ground and stored....

I'm flattered you think my opinions are 'fantastic'. They are as I've previously stated, my own personal opinion, or my own personal viewpoint and as such I believe I am entitled to express an opinion. What others choose to do is entirely their prerogative.

Quote from: 976bar on December 30, 2011, 05:36 PM
Maybe it's time to put you're money where you're mouth is and start producing these amazing curries that you are archieving with all you're freshly ground spices etc etc and post some recipes along with pictures for everyone else to judge!!

I'm perfectly happy with the quality of dishes I produce using the methods, techniques and ingredients I've always used apart from the BIR style dishes missing that 'smokey' flavour that I have stated elsewhere. I also cook my dishes for friends and family to try and I have also posted their feedback on them in other threads.

I have no intention whatsoever of posting any recipe on here just so people like you can rubbish and belittle it as you so obviously want to do.

I'm not convinced in my own mind that copying exactly the brands of preground spices that some BIR Restaurants may use is the answer my own final 5% (and I'm not convinced that it would constitute that for others either) for the reasons I've given within this thread.

If you disagree with those reasons, please feel free to express your own opinion as to why.

Quote from: curryhell on December 30, 2011, 05:35 PM
Anybody got a recipe for achieving perfectly ground garlic powder ;D

Given that garlic powder (or coconut powder for that matter) is not considered a spice per se, I fail to see the relevance of this apart from your obvious flippancy.

If you don't agree with an opinion, why not say so and give your reasons for why, instead of being flippant and adding nothing to the discussion.

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 03:55 PM
Regarding Spices I don't think BIR's would have the time to produce their Spices using whole Spices ( other than possibly Garam Masala imo ) so my comment 'Fresh Spices' referred to what is commercially available (ground) and for the quest to find 'the taste' is what I would use.
Ground whole roasted spices would make a fine Traditional Curry but I don't' think you would see it in a BIR kitchen  IMO

So let me get this right.

Because a typical BIR uses preground spices, you feel that's what you need to do to get 'the taste' you're looking for, yet previously flagged up 'stale' spices as a potential for not getting 'the taste' you're looking for? You then reject the grinding of whole spices to produce fresh ones on the basis that because BIR's don't take the time and trouble to do this, it wouldn't produce 'the taste', despite guaranteeing fresh spices?

Common sense suggests your logic here is flawed. However, it is another example of the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of attitude that prevails here.

It is not economically viable for BIR's in terms of manpower to grind their own spices to ensure freshness, the sheer turnover and volume of spices used would ensure that the spices purchased would be fresh. If they're not, their supply logistics is fubar'd. That is not the case for the majority of home cooks who simply do not get through the volume of preground spices to ensure their freshness other than throwing away an awful lot of spices on a regular basis and replacing them with fresh.

But to suggest that grinding your own spices to ensure freshness would not help you achieve the BIR 'taste', because it's not what BIR's do is nonsense in my opinion.

Quote from: Razor on December 30, 2011, 01:31 PM
In it's absence, we all need to be more specific I guess?

You got it!

A good test is this. Ignoring any preconceived knowledge, write the recipe down including ingredients and then read it back to yourself and ask yourself the question: Could I make this dish following the instructions I have written? If there are ambiguities to you, then there will be ambiguities to other people and don't assume anything.

3 cloves of Garlic
Yeah, how prepared? With skins on? Added whole? Chopped? How finely chopped? Pureed? If pureed, with water? oil? To what consistency? Thick, runny? How much water or oil? What size are your cloves, plump? skinny?

3 Tomatoes
Yeah, how prepared? What size? Plum or Salad? Cherry? Tinned or fresh? Quartered? Skinned? De-seeded? Pureed? Chopped?

2 Tsp Cumin
What kind of cumin, regular or black? Seeds? Roasted and ground? or just ground? Any particular brand?

I daren't even mention Garam Masala

Quote from: emin-j on December 30, 2011, 10:52 AM
Things that come to mind often regarding that 5%, BIR's use fresh Base Gravy ( not from frozen like most of us )
they also are using mostly fresh Spices due to the amount they get through not weeks or even months old stuff like I use anyway

None of those are issues for me.

I know Bruce Edwards is a big advocate of freshly made base gravy and he never freezes his. I've conducted a test with a freshly made batch and frozen and could tell no discernible difference between them. For me, I've discounted this as an issue.

Regarding fresh spices, I only ever buy whole spices for the vast majority of the spices I need and either roast and grind, or simply grind as and when they're needed to ensure maximum freshness. That includes chilli powder, which I make up my own blend from whole dried chillis. The only pre ground spices I buy are Turmeric, which is kinda difficult to buy whole and grind yourself and Paprika. All the others are always bought whole and I make up and grind my own Garam Masala as well.

Preground spices lose their pungency pretty quickly, whereas whole spices do not.

So again for me, this is not an issue as I'm using the freshest spices I can.