Quote from: ELW on January 09, 2012, 12:12 PM
glad thats been cleared up then

That's just my definition of it, no doubt someone will come along and disagree with me like they usually do  :

Cory, I agree with your definition.

The term Tadka or Tarka comes from the Hindi and Punjabi words for 'frying whole in hot oil' and is interchangeable with the Bengali term Bargar. In common useage, the difference is essentially how the results are used.

In Bargar, further ingredients are added to the 'bargar' and cooking is continued. In Tarka, the pan contents are added to something else.

Personally I prefer and am more familiar with the term 'tempering' to tarka.

Tarka

What it is?
The process of frying whole spices with the possible addition of other ingredients such as garlic, ginger, fresh green chilli's or any other common ingredient found and used in Indian cuisine.

Why is it used?
To extract the flavours and essential oils from the whole spices and to cook out the rawness from them and to extract flavours out of the other ingredients.

When is it used?
When these types of ingredients are required as an additional flavouring to something else eg. as an addition to Tarka Dhal.

How is it used?
By adding whole spices to hot oil and frying till they are fragrant along with extracting the flavours from the other ingredients and adding to another dish as a 'tempering' or additional 'flavouring'.

This is my understanding and definition of the term 'Tarka'.

Cory, I agree with your definition.

The term Bargaar, Bagaar, Bargar is a Bengali term for the Hindi word Tadka, Tarka or Bagar which both essentially mean the same thing - the frying of whole spices or other ingredients in hot oil.

The general usage of the two terms Bargar and Tarka seem to be defined according to the following processes. In Bargar, further ingredients are added to the 'bargar' and cooking is continued. In Tarka, the pan contents are added to something else.

Personally I prefer and am more familiar with the term 'tempering' to Tarka.

Bargar

What it is?
The process of frying whole spices (cloves, cardamons, bay leaves, cinnamon/dalchini, cumin seeds etc.) in hot oil.

Why is it used?
To extract the flavours and essential oils from the whole spices and to cook out the rawness from them.

When is it used?
Right at the start of the cooking process before the addition of any other ingredients.

How is it used?
By adding whole spices to hot oil and frying till they are fragrant and release their flavours and oils and lose their rawness.

This is my understanding and definition of the term 'Bargar'.

Cory, I agree with your definition.

The term 'Bhoona' there are various ways of spelling the word loosely translates from Hindi as 'frying spices or spice paste in hot oil'. It should therefore be considered a 'process'.

What is it?
A process of frying spices in either powdered or paste form in hot oil.

Why is it used?
To extract natural oils and flavours and to cook out any rawness from the spices themselves.

When is it used?
Usually at the start of the cooking process and before any other ingredients are added.

How is it used?
Usually in one of two ways -

1/ By adding the spices or spice paste to hot oil and frying till the spices become fragrant and lose their rawness but without burning. This is one of the reasons spice masalas or spice mixes are mixed with water into a paste before being added to hot oil - to stop the spices burning.

2/ By adding the spices or spice paste to an onion/garlic/ginger puree that has already been prefried in hot oil and frying in the same way to release the spice flavours.

Both 'bhoona' techniques can be used, the main differences between them is the margin of error between burning the spices is less with the second method than the first.

The second method is therefore easier for new cooks to start with until experience tells them when the spices are cooked correctly through texture, feel and smell when they can graduate on to the more difficult first method.

That's my definition of the term Bhoona process.

Quote from: Razor on January 07, 2012, 07:04 PM
It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.

And posting pictures of monkeys when you and your cronies decide you don't agree with an opinion is your definition of 'civilised debate' is it?

You're not barmy at all andy, it's a tricky balance to achieve. I can't tell you what BIR's do, but I can tell you what my method is and you may find it works for you.

Firstly, you need to select the waxy kind of potatoes and not the floury ones as floury potatoes tend to disintegrate if you overcook them. You can partly pre-cook these if you want to or cook them from raw, but you'll need to get the amount of liquid correct if you cook them from raw.

Secondly, I don't know what recipe you're using but I'll outline my method below and I'm deliberately not going to give you a recipe - but a technique.

1/ Heat some oil in a saucepan, I prefer a smallish saucepan for potatoes rather than a frying pan and add if using whatever whole spices and fry till fragrant.
2/ Add your onion/garlic/ginger puree and fry, then add your tomato puree if using then your spice mix and fry that.
3/ Add your potatoes, par-boiled or raw and chopped into equal sized pieces so they cook evenly and mix into the spice paste. Remember, the smaller the potato pieces the faster they'll cook.
4/ Now add your base gravy, boiling water or stock or whatever you use and bring to a boil.
5/ Now turn down to a simmer, cover and simmer for however long it takes for the potatoes to be cooked through. Somewhere around 30 mins should be about right depending on the size of the potatoes pieces.
6/ You may need to add more liquid if it becomes too dry before the potatoes are tender or you may need to take the lid off the pan and fast simmer for a few mins to evaporate any remaining liquid, just make sure the potatoes and spice paste doesn't stick to the bottom and burn.

The key to success here is to use waxy potatoes, not floury ones and to add just enough liquid to allow the potatoes to simmer for most of the time in liquid but for this to evaporate and end up with the spice mix paste to cling to the potatoes once they're cooked through. The final dish should be dryish with little liquid and with the spice paste clinging to the potatoes.

I then usually add a squeeze of lemon juice, some chopped coriander and a finely chopped green chilli or two.

Experiment with this method and work out what recipe works best for you.

Quote from: Razor on January 06, 2012, 09:28 PM
It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?

It's not a logical approach to things at all, it's learning by 'mimicry' and not by 'understanding'.

You see a BIR Chef put a 1/4 chef spoon of white powder into his base gravy - what are you going to put into yours by copying him? How do you know what flavour or effect he's trying to achieve if you don't know what it is? It could be a ground spice like garlic or fenugreek powder which will alter the flavour of the dish. It could be a seasoning such as salt, it could be a flavour enhancer such as MSG, it could even be a thickening agent such as cornflour or even plain white flour. How do you know?

How does copying him without the understanding of what he's putting in his dish help you to replicate the same effect or flavour he's getting or trying to achieve? Or are you so good, that you know by instinct and experience what it is?

Quote from: Razor on January 06, 2012, 09:28 PM
How do you know that it does, based on a few members accounts of how they have said that they do things, from time to time? 

First of all, I said 'it seems to be'. That's not a definitive statement either way, but it is the over-riding impression I get based on reading through many of the threads here. Clearly there's people here who cook by understanding, knowledge and experience but the majority merely seem to copy them, without really understanding what it is that they're doing.

One of the reasons I hold that view is because of the sheer number of people here who think it's perfectly acceptable practice to take a base gravy from one person and combine it with a 'spice mix' from someone else. Why? What logic is there in introducing so many uncontrollable variables? Does it not occur to people that base gravy's are designed to work with the spice mix's that go with them?

Curryhell's recent 'supposed' comparison of ifindforu's spice mix (designed to work with his own base gravy) and Ashoka's Spice Mix (designed to work with Ashoka's base gravy) is a good example of this which produced fairly inconclusive results. Yeah I wonder why? What logic (or usefulness) is there in using one base gravy to test two different spice mix's when the predominant flavour of the dish is produced by the base gravy and the spice mix is used to fine tune the final dish?

Someone commented on that thread they were surprised that the two spice mix's produced such similar results - well there's your answer why. What's even more laughable about that comparison is the way Curryhell so tightly controlled the timing of cooking both dishes to try and remove any variables, yet completely ignores the funadamental problem of using the same base gravy to compare one spice mix designed to be used with it and one that wasn't! No wonder then that the results were inconclusive - like so many results here. Hopeless.

Quote from: Razor on January 06, 2012, 09:28 PM
I boil my onions whole in a base, Why? because I saw Chewytikka do it, monkey sees, monkey does? no, not at all.

You do it, because you know with 100% certainty, logically and by deductive reasoning that most if not all BIR Curry base gravy's use boiled onions, garlic and ginger as their predominant ingredients. You don't have to see someone else using these ingredients to know why to use them. After all, you wouldn't try and make a base gravy out of water, flour, yeast, sugar and salt any more than you'd try to make a loaf of bread out of boiled onions, garlic and ginger.

Quote from: Razor on January 06, 2012, 09:28 PM
Spicey, did you not join this forum in the hope of finding the ultimate curry recipe?

I joined in the hope I'd finally be able to solve a 20 odd year mystery 'smoky/sweet' flavour that's always been missing from my curry's. I've got closer to achieving that, but I'm still not there yet. The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.

Cory

I think this is an excellent idea, to introduce a relatively simple 'curry gravy' that doesn't use lots of complex ingredients and is relatively simple to produce as a very good introduction to BIR curry making to forum newcomers.

Just one question if I may. For some odd reason, I've got it into my mind from somewhere that ginger and garlic should be pureed with water and added to the base like that, rather than as whole chopped ingredients and that's the way I've always made my own base gravys. I think this came from Bruce Edwards who felt that garlic and ginger lost some of their flavour and pungency if added without being pureed first.

What's your view on this?

Quote from: George on January 06, 2012, 02:20 PM
Anyway, there seems only a remote chance of 'replicating' many/most recipes on this site, to recreate what the author had in mind. As for replicating what goes on in a BIR, well that's something else...

I agree George, well said.

The forum is useful if chaotic and haphazard and is a minefield for new members to negotiate. The introduction of a constantly variable measurement system such as a chef's spoon just makes it even worse. This is just part of this 'monkey see's monkey does' cooking philosophy that seems to pervade here that I so object to.

I can well understand why a professional cook in a BIR kitchen may give a 'guideline' measurement system of chef's spoons, because that's what they use in day to day professional practice - they don't know what the exact measurements are.

As chewytikka rightly points out, their ability to use this measurement system is born out of expediency, convenience and years of practice of cooking dishes that they know the right quantities to use by instinct. A chef's spoon for them is merely a cooking implement they use to cook the dish and 'spoon' ingredients into it. The measurement of those ingredients is being done by eye and experience.

God only knows why home cooks would want to adopt this system with all the variables it involves over and above merely trying to emulate a professional cook but without the ability or experience to go with it.

Any recipe given here which uses chef's spoons as a measurement can only be viewed as a 'guide measurement' and it's down to the individual cook to vary the measurements by trial, error, experience and feel and by tasting the results over and over again until the recipe is understood.

Quote from: DalPuri on January 05, 2012, 06:33 PM
Hi Spicy,
   I too love that smokey flavour and believe it IS smoke!!
and NOT from burning spices or caramelising, but from the flames licking up the side of the pan and igniting splattering oil.

Hi Dalpuri

I don't 'buy into' that theory I'm afraid - the flames are merely a by-product of the high flame and heat used and is not the cause within itself. If it was coming from igniting oil droplets I could produce that at will very easily and the corresponding smoky flavour. Given that I can't get that smoky flavor so easily, says to me that isn't the reason in my opinion.

Trust me, I've been trying to achieve this for a very long time.