Quote from: gagomes on March 09, 2013, 01:44 PM
Is this the BIR taste that the old generation is after?   ;D

Nah, that doesn't have any sultanas in it

Quote from: Willyeckerslike on March 09, 2013, 12:42 PM
Do you know an old school base Axe?

I think that's going to depend almost entirely on how you define 'old school'. What is old school BIR? I rather suspect you'll get a different set of answers depending on who you ask, how old they are and what their experiences are of eating this type of food.

My own experience goes back about 40 years to the early 70's to one of the older and better quality Indian restaurants in London - the Star of India in Brompton Road. My memory of the food eaten there was that each dish was quite different and had distinctly different flavours that couldn't have been produced from one base sauce. That's always led me to believe that they used more than one base sauce depending on the dish being made.

That's the problem of course with todays BIRs, each restaurant has its own 'house' flavour which is dominated by the base sauce and mix powder being used. Whilst each dish does vary somewhat depending on the additional and different ingredients being used, the underlying flavour is the same. That wasn't the case 40 odd years ago - a Chicken Madras, Bhuna, Vindaloo etc were three quite different tasting dishes. Today a Vindaloo seems to differ from a Madras in being redder, hotter and with potatoes in it! Likewise a Bhuna today seems to be a Madras with less heat, more reduction and a couple of onion and pepper chunks thrown in.

Dishes 40 years ago also had whole spices in them which also led me to believe that those dishes were based on traditional Indian recipes but modified for a commercial kitchen environment and the necessary speed of production.

So far anyone looking to try and recreate the flavour's of yesteryear I'd suggest perhaps looking at how traditional Indian recipes were constructed say 40 years ago and working from there. I doubt very much whether you'll succeed starting from now and going backwards as cookery techniques used now have been constantly streamlined and refined over the years removing and reducing the individuality of each dish to the point that they now all virtually taste the same.

Just my opinion of course based on my own experience - I'm not saying it's the right one.

My oldest Indian cookbook goes back to 1963

Quote from: JamesJeffery on March 09, 2013, 02:04 AM
Appreciate any response. If anyone has any links to a recipe feel free to link me

I'm not quite sure what you're trying to achieve here, but from what I understand you want to cook a whole chicken and then strip the meat off it and use it in a curry dish.

There is a traditional Indian way of cooking a whole chicken and from memory it's called something like Chicken Kurzi. As you're planning on cooking the whole chicken anyway and using the meat from it, it seems like an ideal opportunity to perhaps experiment with cooking a whole chicken with Indian spices and then using that meat in a curry dish.

I did a quick google on Chicken Kurzi and this recipe came up, but there's plenty of others to look at. I've never tried this so cannot vouch for it in any way. There are some recipes that use rice as a filling instead of kebab meat.

http://www.recipehound.com/whole-baked-chicken-murgh-masalam-or-kurzi/

Quote from: gagomes on March 09, 2013, 01:35 AM...however, strangely none of the main courses were very good (not in the BIR sense.)

I think this just goes to highlight yet again, just how far you've come in your own cooking of this style of Indian food. You now have a yardstick (your own cooking) to compare restaurant dishes against and as many others here have also stated, many restaurant dishes fall short of the quality you expect.

It also goes to show just how much BIR's can vary in quality, there's some very good ones (not many), some average ones (lots) and some poor ones (too many).

Many of the participants of this forum are quite critical of the dishes they produce at home, that's because many are trying to achieve the very best results they can, what we often forget I think is that those results will quite frequently be far better than your average BIR.

Okay many can't seem to get that last nth% in the flavour, but I think that's down to the reasons already well documented on this site.

What it also highlights I think, is that dishes we think we know (Jalfrezi) for example will vary quite significantly across the various regions that make up the UK. A Jalfrezi in Scotland might be quite different to one in Ireland, which varies again to one in the Midlands which is different again to one down south. That applies to many dishes too I think.

Quote from: meggeth on March 08, 2013, 08:06 PMReally don't like the taste of them.

As others have mentioned, it does sound like you may have used them in too large a quantity - given their stronger flavour they really can over power a dish.

Were you following the guidelines in a recipe that called for that amount of black cumin, or did you simply substitute black cumin for white?

A less drastic way of introducing the stronger flavour of black cumin is to use a mix of white and black in the same recipe in a ratio of around 1:4 or 1:6 black to white.

Quote from: haldi on March 09, 2013, 10:08 AM
But either of them should be used very sparingly
Just a tiny amount or they dominate and ruin dishes

I agree.

Black cumin has a much stronger flavour than the more common white cumin variety and should not be used in comparable quantities. As you rightly say, black cumin should be used much more sparingly. I would use it in a 4:1 ratio (when you usually use 4 parts white cumin, use 1 part black) depending on what you're using it for.

It's a common mistake many people make in using the same quantities of each and thinking they're interchangeable which they're not.

Quote from: sp on March 08, 2013, 08:10 PM
I wonder if a little drop would be good in curry, or maybe even in naan?  Worth a try

I've tried liquid smoke in a marinade, base sauce and final dish - didn't do much for me. Be careful of how much you use, too much can very easily overpower a dish and instead of imparting a smokey flavour it makes it bitter.

I've tried smoked garlic and smoked salt and neither gave me the flavour I was after.

Quote from: bayleafthief on March 08, 2013, 12:47 PM
Allright, seems then that maybe my spices are just old.

That's quite possible, a lot of the symptoms you're describing here are symptomatic of stale spices.

Spices start to lose their flavour immediately after you open the packet and will continue to decline to the point they become stale which usually happens after about 2-3 months or so in storage but can be less if they're not stored correctly. Ideally you need to store them in an airtight jar away from light and heat which are the two main causes of spice deterioration. Store them in a cool dark place ideally.

Fresh spices should be pungent when you open the jar and you shouldn't have to put your nose into the jar to smell the aroma. Putting your nose into a jar and still not smelling much is a sure sign of stale spices.

What is it that you're trying to achieve here? Are you frying and tasting individual spices to understand the flavours they impart?

The flavours from spices is contained in the essential oils, when frying in hot oil the oil infuses with those essential oils. Oil is the flavour carrier, not the gritty spices themselves, so you should only be tasting the oil, not the spices.

The same thing applies when frying in a garlic ginger paste, the oil takes on the flavours of the garlic, ginger and spices, so taste the oil when it separates, not the mixture itself. The garlic/ginger paste when pureed with water helps you to control the heat and frying time - you have a much longer window of time when doing it this way as opposed to say 15-30 seconds when frying in only hot oil.

The point at which spices can burn when frying in hot oil is seconds and you have no indicator to tell you when to move on to the next stage of the recipe and stop frying them unless you understand the smell they produce and the changing colour. Understanding that smell and colour and point to stop them frying takes practice and experience and a lot of burned spices!

Frying spices in a garlic/ginger paste with added water gives you control and protection from burnt spices and also an indicator as to when to stop frying and move on to the next stage - it's a more controllable process.

Quote from: bayleafthief on March 07, 2013, 11:56 PM
Are my spices old and to coarse or what?

Possibly, how old are they? Are you grinding them yourself?