On a few occasions now, I?ve spent time searching the net looking for information on restaurant curry secrets and the like. I?m pretty sure many of you have too (some more than others I?d guess... Pete?? ? ;D ) ). What bothers me more than not being able to cook the curries as I?d like, is that I can?t find the reason why I can?t on the net. It?s bizarre -? you can find the answer to just about anything on the net, but despite there being several thousand BIR?s in this country and many thousand BIR workers who will probably know, the most you will find on the net (other than on this site) is vague references to it being impossible to recreate that taste due to the quantities we cook in at home.

Not everyone who has every worked in a BIR kitchen has a vested interest to keep things secret so why is this proving so difficult for a large group of people to crack?

Time to put thinking caps on. Are there any other ways we can go about this problem? Other than asking BIR owners and chefs are then other avenues we can explore?

The first time in a while I got a takeaway last night. Rather than our usual more modern and slightly pricier local, we went to one of the more traditional BIR's locally.

I had a Chicken Chilli Massalla and eating it at home was useful as I could eat it 'in the cold light of day'.

What struck me on close inspection was the amount of oil. Probably twice as much as would be on one of mine made at home, so maybe 6-7 tbps going into the final dish (unless it's coming from the gravy).

That taste, was definitely different also. Just as prominent but more of a smokier tone to it rather than the spicey one from our regular place.  I keep changing my mind on this but I would also now say that there isn't an ingredient added that we are all missing, but maybe we are all missing the boat slightly with a few factors and it is the cumulative effect. Certainly I'd say that 'that' taste does vary from BIR to BIR presumably as a result of different base recipe/method.  I still think everyone should crack on. I think it is still possible to get this nailed, and in time more and more of us will.

That said it won't be me. I'm having a month off beer at home, and all curries!

cheers Pete!

I made a 'Chepstow CTP' tonight using Curry queen/Petes gravy recipe made yesterday. I did veer of the recipe though by adding some coriander stalks  (something the brick lane fella mentioned that I may have omitted from my report). It was the best attempt Ive come up with so far. Pretty close.

That said I went to what is probably the best BIR in my area on Thursday night and had a special called a 'Chilli Garlic Massalla'. It was basically a Chicken Chilli Massala with extra garlic. Tonights curry still lacked something in comparision.

The interesting thing though is that the extra garlic, while very noticeable, did not equate to an extra amount of 'that' taste...

excellent stuff. I shall give this a go at the weekend!

did you make the gravy at the lesson or use the pre-made stuff? I'm wondering if cooking for the times given will give that special flavour?

cheers

Pete - I think you are bang on, with your last post.

Somethings not quite right and yet there doesn't seem to be a logical explanation as to what it missing (or being done incorrectly). Like many on here, when I get it right, the curry produced does taste really nice, but much to my missus annoyance I'll still be dissatisfied with the end result as a restaurant replica.

On scale - this is where my knowledge of cooking falls down...can anyone explain how cooking in large quantities can give different result. I would have thought that if the ingredients are added  in the same proportions and with the same method then the end result would be the same. Can anyone shed any light on this?

There's a quote in the cinnamon club cookbook about the "art"  being in undertsand how the different spices interact and compliment each other. I certainly don't understand how they work other than knowing what they basically smell/taste like. Maybe that's where we are off the mark, in getting the timing right throughout?

then again - even the poorer takeaways Ive had where your curry is knocked out 10 minutes after ordering  have still had that distinct difference to them, so I dunno, I can't imagine it's just a skill issue either.

Talk about paralysis through analysis!!

Following on from the earlier threads I agree with the general sentiment that the missing taste is in the base sauce, but at the same time I don't understand the parameters of the problem - if that makes sense.

To my mind the missing taste is not something subtle, it's a marked unctous depth to the sauce as though an igredient is missing altogther. Would everyone agree on this? It's basically all there apart from this one missing piece?

So - to restate the obvious - what could it be?

An ingredient we aren't aware of?
or a correct method to cooking the ingredients that we havent got right?

Assuming the latter. Everytime I've made a base sauce it looked increasingly more correct in appearance and texture, but I've assumed that I must have bodged the garlic/ginger browning process. Can Pete or Dylan (I can't remember who posted on this) confirm that if you nail the garlic/ginger browning you get that taste?

On more than one occasion I've probably underdone it, and on others maybe just overdone it in the base sauce. When overdone the galric/ginger has still been brown but started to go plastic-y.  I'm wondering though if browning the garlic or galric/ginger combo to just the right stage can be soley responsible for this missing taste, as it's quite a significant tast difference imo?

Sorry if this goes over old ground but I'm puzzled on this. Are we saying that at a certain fleeting point you get an explosion of flavour from garlic ginger that permeates through into the sauce and gives that distinct taste?  If so is there an agreement on quanities required say for making a 2 litre batch of sauce.

Can anyone post a photo of the galric/ginger when it's at this stage. That would probably help me.

cheers

It didn't look like that type of cardommon in shape but the colour and texture are pretty close so I'd go with that.

Pete, yes everything went in one after the other in that order over a space of 2 mins or so. The garlic should go in after the oil on the sag baji. That was left for only about 10 to 15 seconds on the high heat before the onion went in.

hope this helps.

I have a pot of it in the frigde at the moment using that recipe. I cooked it for getting on for 4 hours. It looks very similar to what I saw but still doesnt have that missing taste element. That said, the browing of the garlic is something I might not have got bang on which might explain it.

One thought I had is whether MSG is added. I dont know too much about it but believe it is added to chinese food. Could it also be added to curry, and would it have any effect on taste?

Answers to questions:


The rice used was enough for four. One of the things I'd noticed was that the use of oil and ghee was even more liberal than I was expecting. The amoung of ghee drizzled onto the nans was amlost beyond belief!

The tomato tin was just a stainless steel tin, think the label had just been removed.

No idea on curry powder brand, but going on the empty jars I'd say one of the main brands found in Asian food shops.

The spinach had been cooked and allowed to dry. Its wasnt at all mushy as it can be. I suppose it had been part cooked and left to dry.

Butter ghee for the naans, vegetable ghee for the currys. The butter ghee was actually a big pots of the stuff in a green tin that you can get off the speciality foods shelf in Sainsburys. I forget the brand.

I dont think it was ?star anise, I have some of that in the cupboard at home. I was pale brown in colour. I don't think it was that vital an ingredient.

I'd agree. It's all in the base sauce and it's a bit of a conundrum.

Without meaning to be disrespectfu to curry chefs, curries at this level are assembled more than really prepared with any subltety. I did ask the chef what was in his base and he replied something along the lines of ?"onions, galric ginger, water...very simple".

The conundrum is why no-one on here can crack something that I can't see being that much of a trade secret. ? Skill no doubt comes into it, but surely it can't need that much skill.

If someone can get into a kitchen for the day and see the process right through and hopefully repeated a couple of times, ?I think that is the best chance of cracking it. Is there anyone that thinks they might be able to talk their local curry house owner into this???

Okay, I?ve? finally had time to knock something together. I won?t repeat the thing Pete mentioned in his earlier review so assume that? things? not mentioned remain the same.

I met up with an old school mate that id not seen for a while for the demo. The restaurant was quiet and we had a pint and went over the menu. The choice was a little disappointing. My regular dish is a CTP, but as I?d just tried Mark J?s excellent recipe a few days earlier (btw,? i think? Dylans should also produce a very good result? - I plan to revisit this as I went astray first time)?anyway, I was planning to go for something different. In the end I went for a CT Jalfrezi, and my mate, curious by the title, went for a CT Balti Jalfrezi.

Once dressed up in chefs whites and hat, we went down to the kitchen. As I?d had to get over from Heathrow we?d had to start the lesson later so we omitted the cooking of the base sauce (in hindsight it might have been useful to see if they?d given the same recipe as to Pete). The base sauce itself was indeed thin. It looked very similar to me to what some of? the recipes on here produce i.e. a thin smooth soup like yellow opaque sauce with about a half inch layer of dark red oil on top. The chef said he?d made that batch that morning.

First up he got the pilau rice on the go.? Into a big casserole sized pot.

1.5 ladles of ghee (call it four dessert spoons - 4DSP).
Then 3 DSP of onion
1 TSP salt

After 2 mins of frying in went the pre-washed rice
Then 3 bay leaves (3 three veined variety)
4 cloves
2 green Cardomons
Cassia Bark/Cinnamon Stick (couple of inches)
And something that I thought he called ?Gultri?. Not sure what it was but it was a round flat spice about the size of a two pence piece. Any ideas what this was?

This all went in together and then was fried for 2-3 mins.

He then added water to an inch over the rice and he said ?boiled? for 5 mins with the lid on. I?d actually say simmered as the heat was quite low.

Next up was Sag Baji. All the following cooked in? 8 inch pans.

I DSP of chopped garlic (not chopped as fine as you might think it would need to be).
4 DSP of veg oil
2 DSP onion
? TSP of salt
A pinch of ?metti potti? that what his answer sounded like when I asked. ?Id got distracted here and didn?t get a good look. It was a green herb. Anyone any ideas?
1 TSP tumeric
5 DSP spinach (cooked and dried).

All cooked on high heat, stirred and shaken vigourously for a minute or so.

Then 1 Ladle of curry gravy
1 TSP fresh coriander
1 TSP quartered toms

Simmer for 2 mins. The taken off heat.

Next up Bombay Aloo.

1 Ladle oil
1 TSO onion
1 TSP of toms paste (from ?family size? tin)
1 TSP salt
1 TSP curry powder
Pre-cooked potatoes
A couple of piece of sliced tom
1 Ladle of curry gravy
Fresh coriander
Cook on high heat for 2 mins. Shake and stir vigourously. Take off heat.

Then CT Jalfrezi

1 Ladle of ghee/veg oil. Not sure of ratio ? presume 50/50

1 DSP onion
1 DSP tom paste
1 TSP salt
1 TSP curry powder
1 TSP chilli powder
A portion of green chillis - chopped lengthways (seeds left in).
1 ladle of curry gravy
Pre cooked onion
Pre cooked Chicken Tikka
Pre cooked pepper
A couple of quartered toms
Fresh Coriander

Total time for all these ingredient to go in was 3 mins max (on high heat).

He then simmered on medium heat for another few mins added 2 more ladles of curry gravy when it got a little dry.

Next came the Balti Jalfrezi.

Basically it was the same recipe except for

1 DSP of Pataks Balti paste put in instead of the tom paste!

This might seem a bit of a cheat. However, when served, one was darker than the other and as they came in different dishes and with a different garnish (one had additional coriander, one had strands of red onion) you would expect them to taste a fair bit different. I suppose that?s half the trick?

There you go. No startling revelations but it may help to confirm a few things already worked out.

Overall I?d say that the Bengal Cuisine was very nice, but just very average curry house fare in fairness. I?d guess that at somewhere of higher quality, you might get slight more complexity/sophistication to the ingredients, and dish variations.

I would recommend that anyone goes on this. We had loads of food and with two free pints of kingfisher each thrown in, it's hard to grumble at the cost.


Anything I may have missed out or been a bit vague on, give me a shout, and I?ll try to expand on.

Cheers

Phil.
?
ps - If anyone can get a bonafide restaurant korma recipe that would be great. It's the only curry my missus will eat and I can't get close to the resturant variety with the recipes tried to date.
? ?