Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 03:53 PM
Spices as in whole or ground?

Both I suppose, but since were talking bir, mainly ground

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Some spices have already gone through the high temperature process prior to grinding to a powder, and most essential oils are already released

What do you mean?  Why fry them at all then?

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a good indication to ideal temperature is when a green cardomom sizzles, puffs up and browns within a few seconds

That's just an indication that the green cardamon has become puffed up and brown sns, no more an no less.  Anyway, who fries green cardamoms in a bir curry? 

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If a paste (spice and water) is added to very hot oil, the water will almost immediatley change to steam (100C). Once all the water has evaporated, the temperature of the spice paste will rise very quickly

Not on a domestic hob it wont, ive measured it and it actually doesnt.  Hence my questions

Hmmmm, it seems we are not having a very intelligent debate here domi  

Are you blonde domi?  I am  

Quotebut at the end of the day people will decide for themselves whether or not to roast ground spices, use water or oil bases, air-dried, sundried or heat-dried spices, which is where the personal preference reference

But domi, this thread is supposed to be about people developing sufficient basic knowledge to make an informed decision and thereby improve their bir curry cooking experience  :

Would you have people chuck raw whole spices and in at the end prior to serving because thats their "personal preference" too domi?  :

Quoteit's horses for courses again I'm afraid

No its not domi, its about cooking bir curries and replicating them in the home kitchen  :

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 03:35 PM
You can't argue with personal taste, after all's said and done. lol

Domi Domi Domi, this isnt about "personal taste", it's about food science!  I assume that there is a minimum temperature at which the essential oils will be released from the spices.  It may be that it happens at all temperatures and that is why spices stored at room temperature eventually lose their flavour over time (in months)

But I feel it is important to know if the powdered spices need to get above 100C to release there oils relatively quickly (in minutes).  If so, they need to be added (dry) to the hot oil and not after other water containing ingredients have been added (eg onions) or as a paste in water (maybe as a paste in oil instead?)

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 03:15 PM
Then why do most authentic dishes require a far longer cooking time, Rai?

I dont know domi, why do they?  What temperatures and what times do they require then?

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As far as I'm concerned...most available information suggests that roasting ground spices over a low heat for a minute or so to get the best flavour out of them which kinda pours scorn on the heat theory, doesn't it Rai?

Does it Domi?  What temperatures do you think this roasting gets to then?  Well above 100C I suggest?  And how do you think it compares to powdered spices in a water medium?  Well under 100C I suggest?

See my point Domi?  Maybe you dont see it as a relevant question (judging by your tone)?  Hopefully Im mistaken 

Or maybe youre saying that you think these oils are released well below 100C?  You may be right.

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Far better to know when you've gotten the best out of your spices than to have an exact temperature for cooking them IMO  and that knowledge comes with experimentation, cooking skill and palate

And how can you possibly tell that if you dont know what minimum temperatures they need to be taken to? 

My point is that if the spices need to see greater than about 85C to maximise the release of their flavour (oils), then it might never ever happen (on a domestic hob) if you do anything other than add the powdered spices to the hot oil (>>100C) before adding anything else

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 02:37 PM
surely if you can't get extreme high heat then simply cook the spices out at a lower temperature for a longer time

Noooooooooooooooo Domi 

The flavour of spices is produced by them releasing their volatile organic essential oils isnt it?  These essential oils volatilise at a certain minimum temperatures.  You can cook the spices for days (at say 60C) but you wont get much flavour out of them!  They need to be heated to higher than the temperature at which their oils volatilise.  I presume this may be below 100C for some of them but certainly above 100C for others of them?

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 01:55 PM
I will revert back to waxy type (salad) spuds as I'm now convinced that this does influence the base viscosity which in turn prevents oil separation.

Great report but, as said before, who really cares if the oil separates?  What relevance does it have to anything?

Quote from: jerry
masking the taste has me lol and lol and lol

Sorry jerry, i think might find that he who laughs last might laugh loudest in this case then.

I'm thinking in terms of the five basic taste sensors.  Many people seem to think that salt counteracting bitterness is biological in this regard.  That is "masking" rather than chemical in nature.  I suggest that you maybe check it out a bit further before you lol too much?

Yes I saw it thanks jerry.

How do you know the spices get hotter than 100C (on a 3kW domestic hob)?  Ive measured it with an infra red pyrometer and I can tell you that they won't if (and once) there is water present. 

The question is simple therefore.  Is cooking spices at 100C or below sufficient to fully release their flavours or not (irrespective of what they might look like in the process)? 

Im suprised that such a fundamentally important question has attracted such little response so far.  So I thank you for your responses jerry.

Are you sure about that santa?  So youre saying (but not in laymans terms for sure) that the salt is acting as a base to react with the acids to producse a different salt plus water?  Not sure about that santa, not sure at all 

I thought it was a sensory thing.  The taste buds detect the saltiness which disguises the bitterness

Quote from: Secret Santa on March 22, 2008, 10:38 AM
And yet that's exactly what a lot of authentic dishes use (and sometimes only one or the other)

Really?  Well, I never knew that!