Quote from: Axe on March 19, 2013, 04:41 PMI do understand what your getting at but I can't agree wholeheartedly with regard to the Haryali, primarily as I have never seen the dish before.

And as I said, sometimes you have to take a leap of faith from what your eyes tell you to what your taste buds say and that for me must be the final arbiter of what is good and bad tasting. What it tastes like.

Quote from: Axe on March 19, 2013, 04:41 PMI would also point out that for centuries, curries have been coloured, which is presumably to make them look more appealing.

No they haven't, at least not artificially coloured, that's a modern invention.

Interestingly enough I've been reading up on traditional Indian food recently and all traditional Indian food takes on the colour and appearance of the ingredients used within the dish, none of which I might add are artificial colourings.

Pilau rice is coloured yellow from saffron and/or turmeric - natural ingredients that add flavour. It's only modern BIR's that have taken to making multi-coloured rice through artificial food dyes that add nothing whatsoever to the taste. Rogan josh is traditionally reddish from the sheer number of tomatoes used in the dish, traditional vindaloo from the high number of red chilli's used in it, that's why it was/is a hot dish, modern BIR's just plonk in another couple of tsps of chilli and more tomato puree to what is basically a madras. A madras and a vindaloo are two quite different tasting dishes in traditional Indian cuisine, particualarly as a Vindaloo is a traditional dish and Madras is a modern BIR construct.

Tandoori chicken is red through the use of food dye - it was never red in traditional Indian cuisine, nor is it red in any traditional Indian home cooking either. Red food dye doesn't make tandoori chicken taste any different to one without it. Does redder tandoori chicken taste better than more orange tandoori chicken and does that taste better than one with no food colouring at all?

Quote from: Axe on March 19, 2013, 04:41 PMBut as I said before and correct if me If I am wrong, the topic and those prior to it were really about what a bhuna should be; a dryish dish fried in a hot pan or a fried dish in sauce.

The subject came up because I cited CA getting annoyed at someone complaining that his Bhuna didn't look like a Bhuna and when asked to provide an example of what a Bhuna looked like, a dish with chicken swimming in sauce was given.

That led me to make the point that a Bhuna is a Bhuna when it tastes like a Bhuna, not when it looks like one. Both Sindhi meat/lamb and Bhuna Gohst use the same Bhuna cooking technique to produce an almost dry dish with little sauce. Which one's a Bhuna and which one isn't?

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 04:08 PM
More /ad hominem/ attacks and use of totally unnecessary terms such as "cr@p".

And referring to someone else's opinion as nonsense is not ad hominem presumably?

If forum users don't want to receive fiery replies, perhaps they might themselves be a little more respectful of others opinions? I'm all for sensible, polite, respectful debate and discussion and I'm perfectly capable of conducting myself in that way.

But when someone wanders along and slings out an off the cuff remark that I'm talking ...more nonsense, I'm not going to respond particularly well. Debate the issues, yes, support your opinions with facts and research, yes, dismiss someones opinion with contempt as nonsense? No, that's not acceptable.

Is why CA left now becoming somewhat more apparent to you Phil?

Quote from: Axe on March 19, 2013, 03:47 PMJust Googled the Haryali and have to say, it looks very off putting. I'm sure it's not of course, it'll just take a few beers to get the head round it.

Well I think that encapsulates in a nutshell what I'm trying to say.

Sometimes we have to suspend belief in what our eyes are telling us and let our taste buds be the final arbiter of what tastes good and what doesn't. But doing it the other way round isn't going to work - making something look good, isn't necessarily going to make it taste good.

This is one of the reasons why, when doing taste tests, to get a full, fair and impartial tasting result, it has to be done blindfolded, so you're not influenced by looks.

It is again, another interesting subject.

Quote from: Secret Santa on March 19, 2013, 01:20 PMMore nonsense from you Spicey. I've done it all ways and it makes not a jot of difference.

So presumably to reach this conclusion you've read through both these threads by CA and Jerry who have conducted extensive tests on this theory and both came to the same conclusion? You in fact reject both their opinions and call them both liars and full of (moderated):

https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,3208.msg30045.html#msg30045
https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1851.0.html

You have also yourself conducted extensive tests on a home domestic gas burner and a high output burner to the same capacity that both Jerry and CA and myself have used to reach your conclusion, yes?

If so, I'd be very interested to hear that exact details of the tests and experiments you've carried out, the type, make, cost and output Kw of your high output burner, which dishes you cooked, the recipes used for them and the conclusions you independently reached to form your view that I'm talking nonsense.

The absence of which, I shall be forced to conclude that you're simply taking pot shots at easy targets, as per usual and you are, as usual, full of (moderated).

I'll look forward to hearing all the details.

The lack of which, I think it just and fair that anyone else reading through this thread can form their own conclusions based on the links and evidence I've provided.

PS Same applies to Aussie Mick, if he cares to contribute and substantiate his own opinion on this here.

Of you go...

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 02:21 PMOf /course/ it matters what a bhuna looks like : we eat first with our eyes, then with our nose, and only finally with our taste buds.  If it doesn't look right, it won't taste right, no matter how skillfully prepared.

Not in my opinion.

It's about taste, taste, taste and taste again. Looks have nothing whatsoever to do with taste and I'll prove my point to you in what may be (for you) a painful way, but no offence is intended in anyway.

Take a look at your chicken liver dish here: https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,11717.msg91816.html#msg91816

I can tell you what I think that looks like with a bit of coriander sprinkled on top, but you might think me somewhat rude in saying so.

However, given your recipe and how you've cooked it, what I think it looks like has nothing to do with my inclination to want to taste it.

On the other hand, given the popularity of the generally radioactive looking bright red dishes that seem to dominate this site, which I personally find very unattractive, partially because I know that colour has been achieved by lots of tomato puree, Kashmiri chilli's/paprika and even red food dye, I have no inclination to want to taste them at all.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 02:21 PMI have eaten green tandoori chicken, and it tasted abominable : no matter how much I said to myself "the colour doesn't matter", it /did/ matter, and that is a basic fact of cuisine and the culinary art that we just have to accept.

And in my opinion Tandoori Murgh Haryali, chicken marinated in spinach and spices has been and continues to be one of the very nicest tandoori dishes I've so far tasted and provides a very nice alternative to the traditional tandoori and chicken tikka dishes at everywhere produces these days.

As is so often the way on here, our opinions on this subject are almost diametrically opposed.

I couldn't disagree with you more.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 18, 2013, 11:09 PMBut for whatever reason he appeared to lose all interest in sharing knowledge, and began to see the forum only as a medium through which to express his frustration and his contempt for anyone with whom he disagreed (or who disagreed with him).

Yes he did and there were very good reasons for why. He got fed up with all the bullshit, something I can well empathise with.

Of anyone here, CA was the most open minded to exploring new ways of doing things, of new knowledge and understanding of how and what we do. What frustrated him was the constant dogma that surrounds what and why people do things. What also used to frustrate him was the constant unsubstantiated nonsense people used to come out with. I read recently in one of his threads someone saying to him, that doesn't look like a Bhuna. He replied, what's a Bhuna supposed to look like, and so a picture of what that person thought was a Bhuna was posted that didn't look anything like a Bhuna! Can you understand why people get frustrated with this nonsense? Can you understand why contempt is shown for that?

What does it matter what a bloody Bhuna looks like as long as it taste like one? This is a problem a lot of people have on here, they're far too hung up on what things look like rather than what it actually tastes like. It's substance, not superficiality.

I've thought for some time that this forum almost splits down the middle between the people who are interested in understanding the processes, the whys and wherefores of cooking and those that don't care and just copy and emulate BIR cooks to create something that broadly looks right. If it looks right, it should taste right, right? I know that's a bit of an oversimplification but that's the best way I can express it.

That's where the angst and conflict comes from - two very different ways of looking at and doing things and when one clashes with the other you get conflict.

Anyway, I think I've derailed poor Chris's thread enough for one day

Quote from: goncalo on March 18, 2013, 10:08 PM
This curry made me happy. It sure wasn't worse than some of the bad takeaways I experienced in UK.

It's pleasing you're making progress with your cooking, it's so nice when things start coming together and you then start looking quite critically at what takeways offer.

A sure sign of improvement

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 18, 2013, 10:37 PM
Gentlemen, gentlemen : this forum has been blissfully free of angst since a certain antipodean expatriate once again quit its hallowed precincts; do you think we might keep it that way ?

And the forum (in my opinion) is by far the worse for it too. CA had a wealth of knowledge he shared and it's missed, if not by all, certainly by me. Angst or no angst.

I'm merely expressing my opinion in this matter, nothing more.

Quote from: h4ppy-chris on March 18, 2013, 10:34 PM
The difference between me and you spiceyokooko, is i can back my mouth up. Can you?!!!

I don't have to because I'm not making claims that I've unlocked the secret like you are. A subtle distinction quite clearly lost on you.

But probably more importantly, I offer and give my thoughts (like a great many others on here also do) on BIR cookery on an open public forum for free. Not that many people think many of my thoughts on it have much merit.

Therein lies the difference between us, I'm happy to contribute my knowledge to a public knowledge base, all you're interested in doing is leeching information from here and combining it with what your chef buddy has told you and charge people for it.

She mixes spices with flour, 4 or 5 tsps, namely salt, cumin, garam masala, chilli powder about a tsp of each, dredges the chicken livers in the flour with a little water. Fries a sliced onion in oil and removes it, then fries a couple of tsps of garlic puree in the same oil, adds the chicken livers about a pound, stir fries them, adds the remaining flour with a little water and fries it in then, adds chopped tomatoes and coriander. Serve with the fried onions.

Given that's my interpretation of her recipe I don't think it's subject to copyright