Quote from: Garabi Army on March 19, 2013, 09:18 PM... until then you will have to carry on rattling away at your keyboard throthing at the mouth.

I'm not quite sure what throthing means, but I can assure you I don't do it at my keyboard.

All you've said is that you came away with some cooked dishes that had that BIR aroma. Big deal.

Any number of people on this forum can achieve the same results. What's new?

Nothing.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 07:51 PM
Chris has already invited CR0 members to join him for tuition, and one has already reported back that the day was a great success.  I think he deserves recognition for that...

Why? What knowledge or information is he imparting into this forum? Nothing. He's taking out and putting nothing back.

The forum members who got all excited about their visit and cooking lesson at Zaal in Fleet all reported having a successful days cookery tuition and were kind enough to share their discoveries with the forum. What did they discover? Any new innovative ways of unlocking the taste to BIR Takeway's as Chris is claiming? No. They kindly described a recipe and instructions for cooking a base in a slightly different way using water to extract flavour from whole spices and frying spices in g/g before adding tomato and then adding to the base sauce. A different way of doing something, but not revealing anything anyone on here doesn't already know about. A variation on a theme. A slightly different way of doing something.

I've tried the Zaal base, made to spec and I think it's a good one. Did it change the way I cook bases? No. Did it fundamentally change my mind about how BIR bases are made? No. Did it teach me anything new? No.

Chris will not produce anything different but variations on a theme we already know about. Perhaps a difference sequence of cooking, perhaps a more streamlined way of cooking, perhaps changing ingredient ratios - but nothing fundamentally new, or that anyone on here doesn't already know about.

JB above suggests his methodology heavily relies on spiced oil, that's not new either, there's plenty of recipes for spiced oil on here and using reclaimed oil from cooked bases and dishes is widely known about and used.

What's so special about spiced oil? It's spice essential oils extracted and dissolved into an oil flavour carrier which is then used in the frying stage, added to base sauce or even added towards the end of cooking a dish. It just introduces another layer of flavour.

What's new? Nothing. CA gave recipe for spiced oil way back when...

Everything (the techniques and ingredients) anyone needs to cook and produce very BIR smelling and tasting dishes that will challenge their local takeway is right here on this site, right now if they want to look for it.

Yet Chris seems to think he's come up with some secret, unknown, not commonly used techniques for achieving that BIR taste and aroma we don't already know about?  :

Not in my opinion.

Quote from: jb on March 19, 2013, 07:48 PM...the point is at no time did he flame the pan,everything was cooked on a sensible heat.If he can do it I know it's perfectly achievable at home on a domestic hob.

How do you define sensible heat?

Have you looked at your average commercial gas burner and counted the number of gas jets on it and then compared that number to the ones on your hottest domestic kitchen gas burner? Commercial burners can be anything from 3, 4, 5, 6 times the heat output of domestic ones.

But this isn't just about temperature extremes, in other words it's not about the very highest heat output a commercial burner can produce over a domestic one, it's about the constant higher heat output a commercial one can produce. In other words, the ability to keep the contents of the pan at constant temperature to keep the contents cooking without cooling. Given the lower heat output of domestic gas burners they struggle even at their maximum settings to maintain a high temperature in the pan when cooler ingredients are added.

It's this that makes the difference, not the extreme temperatures.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 07:40 PMIf it looks as we want it to, it is more likely to taste as we want it to.

I can't say I agree with that and in my opinion it's exactly the reason a lot of people on this site have problems with the dishes they make. They make something look right, but then find it doesn't taste right, because they haven't cooked it right.

Just because something looks right, doesn't mean it will taste right. Just because I can make something look like I want it to in no way means it will taste like I want it to.

As I've said previously, for me, taste is king. I don't care what it looks like, if it tastes good to me, that's what I'll eat.

Usually, if it tastes good, it will also look good, because it's been cooked properly. No amount of artificial colourant twiddling will change that.

Quote from: haldi on March 19, 2013, 07:24 PM
Please don't don't post stuff like this

Yes, point taken, I am suitably chastised and regret posting such an aggressive and rude comment.

However, my sentiments remain. I'm not convinced by this person or his claims, but as others have rightly said and pointed out, it's perhaps best to remain quiet until such a time as his claims can be tested via his book.

But also in the same vein, Chris also needs to stay quiet, until such a time as he is ready and able to produce this book and his claims can be tested and verified. To continue teasing people and bigging himself up in the meantime is wrong as no-one has any way of knowing whether what he is saying is true or not as none of it can be verified. He can continue saying whatever he likes and no-one can take him to task on it.

But that's just my opinion.

Quote from: failsafe on March 19, 2013, 07:11 PMThus the question is: when is a Bhuna, a Bhuna

When it tastes like one 

But you mention an interesting point - aroma and taste. Aroma is very closely linked to taste and smell is the most sensitive of the senses.

It's interesting.

If you were blindfolded for example and were given say half a dozen Indian BIR dishes to smell, which one would you choose to eat? In the same way, if your blindfold was taken off, would you then change your mind based on what the dishes looked like?

I'm not convinced that appearance guides our choice in terms of what something should taste like. It's a con perpetuated upon us by wily restauranteurs to mislead us into thinking dishes are going to taste better than they actually are.

That's not to say a dish's appearance isn't important, it is, but when we sit down in a BIR restaurant to select from the menu, we make choices on dish descriptions, and past taste experience - not on what they look like.

Quote from: chonk on March 19, 2013, 07:08 PM
I'm not sure about that. The muslims of Kashmir did and do use the cockscomb plant, and they used and/or still use "Ratan Jot" (Alkanna tinctoria).

Interesting.

Do you have any more information on why they used these? Was it for religious reasons? I was reading yesterday that Indian Muslims exempted certain vegetables from their fast for some reason, something to do with the health properties or religious.

Quote from: chonk on March 19, 2013, 07:08 PMI believe that indian street vendors began to colour their tandoori chicken to distance themselves from the products of their competition, and let people believe, it's in some way superior.

I agree. I think Tandoori chicken was originally coloured with Kashmiri Chillis to give it that reddish colour which is now emulated with artificial food dye in todays BIRs! 

Quote from: commis on March 19, 2013, 06:51 PMI note that an old friend of mine comented that early curry houses were just that and the food was cooked on domestic gas stoves.

Which is nevertheless an important and interesting point to make.

This lends further belief to the view that old style BIR Indian food did taste and was produced differently to modern style BIR food, which will be of some use to those on the forum who are trying to replicate this old style flavour and taste.

Interesting indeed. This further supports my view that ingredients and techniques of yesteryear were quite different to those used now.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 06:17 PMA traditional Indian chef would use Kashmiri chillies in order to enhance the red colour of a dish; this is "colouring" but not "artificial colouring".

Certainly traditional dishes like Rogan Josh get their red colouring from as I've already said, tomatoes, but also the use of Kashmiri chilli's. Given that Rogan Josh is a dish that originates from the Kashmir region, it also necessarily follows they would use chilli's from that region within it. Traditional Indian food is very much regional ingredient based.

I'd certainly be interested in another example of where Kashmiri chilli's are used to colour a dish from the South of India, such as Goa or Kerala, given that Kashmir is in the North of the country.

But this still shouldn't detract from the point I'm making. Which is, artificial colourants as used in modern BIR's add nothing to the flavour and taste of the food they're added to, they are used for appearance only.

As home cooks, it is simply unnecessary for us to blindly follow this practice when at the end of the day we should be primarily interested in what something tastes like, not what it looks like. Unless of course you want to dazzle your dinners guests with a sumptious array of brightly coloured Indian food.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on March 19, 2013, 05:22 PMI am just saddened that you now seem to find it necessary to adopt exactly the same style of argument that he latterly adopted.  Both of you are capable of far better.

And that will continue in the same vein as long as people on this forum continue to dismiss my opinions as nonsense.

I am entitled to my opinion, and I will express it regardless of whether people happen to agree with it or not.

That opinion carries no more weight than anyone else's, neither am I saying it is the right opinion, I do however, expect that opinion to be afforded the same respect and courtesy that I afford other peoples opinions whether or not I happen to agree with them.

I would also like to point out that whilst I am like minded to CA, I am not CA we are two entirely different people, I just happen to respect and admire his opinions and ability in cooking this style of food.

It's just a shame that yet another interesting thread has been wrecked and derailed into petty whinging when we should be discussing the merits or otherwise of the topic of the thread.