Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on August 27, 2012, 05:26 PM
But let us suppose that Mr Patak were to produce a paste consisting primarily of beef dripping with added dried Coleman's mustard, salt and (perhaps) a little black pepper; if those were the ingredients that my long-dead grandmother had used (albeit separately, and not from a modern convenience jar), then I would be inclined to suspect I would get pretty d@mned close by using Mr Patak's modern convenience version.  Would you not agree ?

Let us suppose, instead, that Patak take spices (let's give them the benefit of the doubt here) and reconstituted ingredients and then add antioxidants, stabilisers, preservatives, acidity regulators, salt, bulking agents, etc, (because that, in fact, is what Patak actually do).....

...I very much doubt that your long-dead grandmother did it that way at all.

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on August 27, 2012, 10:08 AM
I can replicate and better most modern Chicken Madras's

Please would you point me to the madras recipe of yours (and any supplementary recipes required to make it) that you consider to be your best, I would be very interested in trying it.

Thanks,

Quote from: Ramirez on August 27, 2012, 01:41 PM
Same question to you CA: what recipes bring you closest to old BIR - your own?

I think that all of the recipes that I have ever tried have been significantly lacking with regard to the taste and aroma and texture of the best "old style" BIR curries.  And it's nothing, whatsoever, to do with "nostalgia" (in my opinion).

Quote from: Secret Santa on August 26, 2012, 10:56 PM
.....Patak's pastes, the very reason why the old style (and infinitely superior) curries are disappearing...

I agree.  The (more recent) use of commercial pastes is an obvious difference between "old style" BIR curries and "new style" BIR curries.

However, I would even go so far as to question how prevalent the use of the following were in the "old style" BIR curries:

• Standardised "spice mix" or "mixed powder" (that now seems to go into most BIR curries)?
• Dried fenugreek leaves (which now seem to go into many, if not most, BIR curries)?
• Fresh coriander (which now seems to adorn most curries)?

Quote from: Philit matters not one iota (IMHO) whether the recipe includes Patak's, Shan's or Uncle Tom Cobbley's products so long as it achieves the results we are seeking

That may be true, in principle, Phil.  But, if you're trying to replicate...oh, I dunno, your favourite roast potatoes like your grandmother used to make, and you insist on roasting them in Canola oil from a spray can (or olive oil, say), whereas she roasted them in lard, or beef dripping, then you are probably never going to replicate her roast potatoes, are you? You'd be barking up the wrong tree, I'd say...

FFS! 

At least you make me laugh (even if it is in exasperation!)  :

Quote from: Phil [Chaa006] on August 25, 2012, 01:10 PM
I asked a question, you answered it.  Unless you are interested in argument debate for the sake of argument debate, it is not clear what more I can usefully add

Well, you could at least refute my rationale, question it, or support it?  Else, it might be reasonable for me to assume that that it is YOU that is being argumentative debating!

Quote from: Philif we were to discuss BIR cuisine and only BIR cuisine, then I for one would find this forum a poorer and less interesting place to visit

But, surely, that's the main theme of this forum?  Surely, the rest is simply mindless banter for mindless people that have nothing better to do?  I'm sure there are MANY other forums in which to discuss the merits of fine cigars, fine wines and....errrr..."fine" ladies' bra sizes! 

For me, I would rather this forum focused on cooking BIR curries (preferably those pre 1990).

But, since Admin doesn't even use a curry base...what are the chances, really?  :-X

I am still looking for simple answers, to simple questions, that I asked years ago...and those answers are, sadly, not forthcoming.....and fine cigars, fine wines and....errr..."fine" ladies' bra sizes were certainly not the nature of my questions! 

No comments on my previous post on this thread, Phil (or anybody else, for that matter), in reply to your previous questions?

Or, perhaps you're more interested in discussing fine cigars, fine wines and ladies' bra sizes, than you are in discussing cooking BIR curries?   

Quote from: Phil (Chaa006) on August 21, 2012, 07:56 AM
I am still unclear what exactly was your thinking behind (1) the inclusion of, and (2) the timing of the inclusion of (a) curry masala, and (b) curry powder in your base.....it is not at all clear to me why one would include curry masala and curry powder in a base and, if one is going to do so, why they are neither bhooned nor cooked for any appreciable time

1.  Inclusion:

a)  As we have previously discussed (elsewhere), "curry masala" (or simply "masala"), "spice mix", "curry powder", "mixed powder", etc, are synonyms.  They are all a mixture of spices.  To my mind "curry powder" (as referred to on this forum and in BIR cooking) is most often used as a generic term for a  commercially bought mixtures of powdered spices (e.g. Rajah Mild Madras). 

b)  All (?) BIR curry bases include a mixture of spices, in whatever form (i.e. whole and/or powdered).  Invariably, spices are included in the forum of a mixture of dry, powdered, spices (i.e. what this forum commonly refers to as "spice mix" or "mixed powder").

c)  Many (most?) BIR "spice mix" or "mixed powder" contains commercially bought "curry powder". 

d)  My "curry masala" does not include commercially bought "curry powder".  So, much like you choose to add individual spices separately, I do the same with my curry base (i.e. I add my "curry masala" and commercially bought "curry powder" separately). 

This is otherwise consistent with what BIRs generally do.

2.  Timing:

a)  Through empirical research (which I know you are particularly fond of  ), I have found that adding the spices, towards the end of cooking the base, gives the best results.

b)  I have found that adding the spices at the beginning results in a less flavoursome and fresh-tasting curry base

c)  I have found that frying the spices, before adding them, adds little to the quality of the resultant curry base (if it adds anything positive at all)

d)  I figure that adding the spices to the hot base, simmering for 5 minutes, and allowing to cool, is sufficient for the essential oils (flavours) in the spices to be extracted into the curry base (via the oil contained in the curry base)

This is otherwise consistent with what BIRs generally do (though I accept that many will fry the spices before adding them towards the end of the curry base preparation process).

On a similar note, I have found that simmering the curry base, after blending, adds nothing to the flavour or aroma of the curry base.

Quote from: phil]but I am not "frying" the base, nor do I see how one can "fry" a base.  It is (gently) heated, and then added to the pre-fried chicken, garlic, ginger, chilli, oil, etc., but is it really possible to "fry" a substance (base) that is primarily an aqueous liquid with suspended vegetable matter and spices ?

My understanding of "frying" is to cook in hot oil or fat.  So the curry base (and the spices within it) is being (or should be) "fried" in hot oil (in my opinion).  The same can be said of the tomato paste, I believe, it is "fried" (in hot oil).

This is why, in my recipes, I invariably state to add the curry base, a little at a time, so as to "fry" it and reduce it. 

Quote from: philIn reality what you are doing is braising the spices (and the other suspended ingredients, and the meat); in a KD-style curry, that is indeed what you do (the spices are never fried at all)

That might be true if you were to add too much liquid (e.g. curry base) at a time, and/or have insufficient oil, and/or have insufficient heat to fry it.

Quote from: philbut the main difference as far as I  can see is that KD eschews curry powder and you include it

Which is one possible reason why KD curries (and methods) do not much resemble typical BIR curries and never did (in my opinion).

Quote from: thewhiterabbit on August 21, 2012, 02:21 PM
Just wanted to say a quick thanks to Cory for this recipe. I tried it on Sunday night and it was awesome...extremely tasty - I'd have been happy to pay for it in a restaurant! In fact, it was so good my dear other half said "you can stop experimenting now...just make this from now on".

Glad you and your wife liked it TWR 

What strange posts and what a strange attitude (particularly for a seeming newcomer to the forum) 

Makes me wonder is "skinflintwood" is mistaking a "curry base" with a "basic curry sauce"?

From their description, it sounds more like the latter (i.e. "I usually add meat and cook it altogether").

I used to do this with Patak Vindaloo and Patak Madras sauces in the early 1990s (I have never seen the particular sauce they seem to be referring...rather ambiguously...to).  It was not BIR then.  It is not BIR now.  It was, and is, nothing like BIR, as far as I can tell.

I only do something similar (now) when trying to replicate Chinese Takeaway curries (because I think that is precisely how they do it).

I certainly wouldn't be promoting it as "this it it"! (as far as BIR cooking, past or present, is concerned).  It seems, to me, to be something only a complete novice to BIR cooking would do.