Quote from: parker21 on January 15, 2008, 05:06 AM
yes carrot and coriander but no chillies
regards
gary

Hi Gary,

Thanks for the clarification on the ingredients.  This is a base I really want to try, so I was just curious how you came to the proportions described from the original you saw, that's all.  It's ok if you made educated guesses, btw, I was just wanting to be as accurate as possible.

Unfortunately, that's just how I am...

Jerry,

I too found Gary's recommended cooking procedure to be the business in terms of getting the best curries so far (even with the KD base).  The one thing that I did differently was to make a paste of the dry spices and his recommended amount of base first instead of doing it in the pan.  I added this after browning some garlic in the hot oil and fried until "the smell" (which I find hard to classify as "toffee" either) and then a bit more before adding the rest of the base and meat.

Having done it by frying the dry spices when making SnS's Saffron Madras, I think I prefer to make the paste beforehand.  I intend to make a paste in my next iteration of that to see if it makes a difference to the taste, but I do think it makes things slightly easier to manage without as much chance of burning the spices (which, fortunately, I've managed to avoid so far...).

Cheers,

ast

Quote from: Secret Santa on January 16, 2008, 04:20 AM
That last picture is of you thumbing a lift to a real curry house then? Most definitely done that!

Nah... from here, I have to take the train!

Thanks Stew.  We'll do.

Hopefully they're worth posting!

Ok.  I'm convinced.  This is pretty damn good...

Having discovered the operator error issue that resulted in the fairly odd-tasting madras on Sunday (where I used 400ml of base for the indicated spices vs. the correct amount of 200ml), I've since made two different attempts at a vindaloo (the last one on the way to developing a recipe that might eventually get posted).


No point in going into much of the detail; pictures are of a 20cm pan this time since there was less curry base.  I used the technique SnS posted for the Madras and didn't change anything else except the amount of chilli powder (4tsp of hot).  The results were very, very good, and I've put to rest any of my earlier reservations about the base.

Having done this a couple of times now, the places that make vindaloo like I prefer must also start with the onion.  It gives the finished curry that added bit of depth and texture that I'd been missing so far.  There's still a bit of fullness missing that I'm working on, but I've a few ideas that I'll be trying to see what happens.  At least I've plenty of base since the final curry recipe is geared for individual portions.

I'm also confident enough with it that I'll be making curry for 9 next weekend using this base.  I may yet tweak the final curry technique a bit to see what difference that makes, but I know now that I've got something that will give solid results and leave empty plates on Sunday.

Many apologies for my earlier reservations about the base.  Next time, I'll triple-check the recipe when I'm retyping it into my recipe collection!

Cheers,

ast

BTW, using the Evian bottles makes everything much, much handier.  Until it lets me down, I think this is my container of choice for easy base management (and the price is certainly right too... ).

Quote from: Jethro on January 15, 2008, 05:57 PM
Result:
Portion 1, just chilli powder and original chilles from recipe = nice medium/hot well rounded dark full flavour (as it should be)

Portion 2, Original chilli content plus 4 haba?ero chillies = still nice round flavour but hotter and flavour was slightly lifted with more top notes.

Portion3, All the chilli content of the other 2 with 3 Dorset Nagas as well= Much lighter flavour, and *expletive deleted* hot.

Conclusion:
The addition of fresh chillies seems to lift the curry (more lighter top note flavours)
BUT whether this is due to the inherent flavour of the chillies added, or the gob numbing abilities of vast quantities of capsaicin, I am not sure..discuss and experiment for yourselves.

Holy crap!  And people were accusing me of making my curries hot!

Just so I can compare, approximately what was the volume of sauce/chillies in each case?  I use habaneros from time to time (and I'm currently drying some to use to make some custom chilli powder), but I've never had Scotch Bonnets or Dorset Naga.  From the Peppers by Post site, it looks quite interesting.

I quit eating really spicy food on a regular basis for a while after we moved out of the city, and I noticed my tolerance isn't what it used to be.  With all these curries here lately though, I'm working on getting back in shape.

Still, I don't know that I'd be able to eat your curries.  Those Dorset Nagas look pretty serious!

Hi Folks,

I've been thinking about this for a while, but I haven't come up with a good answer on my own.  What I was wondering was if we were to develop some heavily modified or original recipes based around the "essentials" of BIR-style cooking, where would be an appropriate place to post them on this forum (if it is appropriate at all)?.  I'm thinking predominantly about new dishes made with a curry base but using similar techniques and styles.

The main reason is that I'm interested in trying some experiments using base sauces but with potentially non-standard additions/ingredients that are borrowed from other types of cooking.  If they turn out ok and are something I'd be interested in making again, I'm willing to share them here.

If it's really just minor variations to existing recipes, I'll follow the lead of everyone else and post them in the appropriate BIR-* category, but if it's more substantial than just two or three changes which don't really try to mimic an existing restaurant dish, I don't think that's the right place.

I guess I could always just post them in the general curry forum and see what happens.  Maybe that's the best solution after all.

Any info would be appreciated.  BTW, I don't have a timeline planned for any of these recipes, but I thought I'd ask just in case.

Thanks in advance,

ast

Quote from: Admin on January 14, 2008, 04:29 PM
Hi ast,

Excellent post with great pics again.
Can i suggest you try this recipe next - Chicken Tikka Massala https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=539.0

We tried this the other night using chicken cooked from the 'chicken tikka better than a restaurant' post and made the Chicken Tikka Massala , absolutely first class.

Stew

Cheers for that Stew.

I was recently reminded that my wife used to eat CTM before I introduced her to a wider variety of Indian food, so I'd already printed out that recipe based on other people's recent comments about both posts.  I need to make it to a real Asian grocer before I can do the marinade though, as I can't find some of the stuff at the local shops out here in the 'burbs.

Did you make this with the Saffron base?  If so, were any modifications necessary?  Maybe the coconut and the spice mix might offset the latent sweetness in the base (the lot that I have, anyway).  Did you use a particular spice mix?

Thanks for the suggestion,

ast

Hi Folks,

As planned, made this recipe yesterday with the madras.  Results provided in both short and long versions.  The long version is really long.... (you've been warned )

The Short Version:

The Curry Base

Based on the results posted by many, I'm really not sure if I did everything right or not.  I was really surprised how good the base smelled when cooking, and the taste was like a very tasty soup with just a hint of curry before dilution with the extra water.

I think I simmered the base on too low a setting, because I didn't notice any oil separating until I started simmering on medium.  I may also have used a tad too much water for cooking the chopped vegetables, because I ended up with a lot more base than most other people seem to get.

Still not 100% sure if I'm happy with the results vs. where I am with the KD base.

The Madras

I made a chicken madras according to SnS's recipe.  My wife liked it better than anything else to date and that it had a much richer flavor than the others I've made from the KD base and derived recipes.  She said, "a lot of people would pay to have this curry," so I guess it was a hit.

I also had some of the madras sauce over rice to try it.  I'm not a madras eater normally, and I've never ordered one out, so I'm not quite sure what it's supposed to taste like.  Like my wife, I found that it had much richer flavors.  I would say that with these recipes, the finished curry comes mostly from the base and less from the pan.  There is much more flavor from the base in the finished curry than from what I've made from the KD base (though, in fairness, I've never thought the KD base had much of a taste).

The finished curry was much sweeter and was very different to any curry I've paid for (that I can remember at least).  I thought it was good, but I wouldn't say it was my favorite curry experience.  I do realize, however, that I'm not likely comparing apples to apples since I never order this dish.

Oh, and I still think there's some ingredient equivalent mismatches where the density of water was used to provide the volume weights.  I'm not criticizing SnS, so don't get me wrong.  I just want to have the recipe as accurate as possible.  Like I've said before, sometimes I use mass and sometimes I use volume measurements depending on what's handiest at the time, so if they don't agree, it makes a difference.

The Long Version:

When I made this, I took extensive notes and several pictures.  Start to finish, with interruptions to eat lunch, help take care of our son and provide occasional assistance with wallpapering the sitting room, it took me 6hrs to make the base.  I'm sure I could do it faster next time, but I thought it'd be interesting to track how long it took.

The Curry Base

Ingredients used:

• 1.146kg onions (11 small onions + 1/2 of large onion)
• 1 carrot (156g)
• 1 green pepper (212g)
• 2 vine tomatoes (204g)
• 4 salad potatoes, variety French Exquisa (186g)
• 1 tbsp salt (26g) -- this is the equivalent I got weighing 1tbsp salt, not 15g
• 16g garlic puree (frozen)
• 16g ginger puree (frozen)
• 500ml sunflower oil (Brand-X)
• 1/2 tin (200g) of whole plum tomatoes, slightly blended
• 10g ground cumin
• 10g ground coriander
• 16g turmeric
• 12g paprika (normal)

SnS:  Can you also please weigh 2 tbsp of garlic/ginger puree?  I'm guessing that it will weigh more than 30g due to the oil, but I could be wrong.

Note:  all weights for the vegetables were before they were peeled, cleaned, etc.  I also had to toss one onion that turned out to be bad, so it was actually probably pretty close to only 1kg of onions that I ended up using.


The biggest pot in the house is the 6qt Calphalon anodized aluminum stock pot.  Based on what people had said, I figured it should be big enough to hold the expected 4L of resuting base.  Chopped the veggies and into the pot with the water.  Here's where I think I made mistake #1.


In trying to cover all the vegetables, I think I got a little carried away with the water as most of them wanted to float.  Next time, I think 2.5-3.0L should do it, and provide a bit more like the expected amount of base.  Here, I think I have about 3.5L in the pot after the oil and ginger/garlic puree was added.

BTW, I used the recipe posted by Stew back in Feb '05 (https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,127.msg540.html#msg540).  When googling to see how/if you could freeze it, I ran across several pages saying don't keep it at room temperature or in the fridge due to garlic's low acidity and propensity to cause botulism if not handled correctly (quote from http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/encyclopaedia!openframeset&frame=Right&Src=/edible.nsf/pages/garlic!opendocument):

QuoteAny homemade garlic in oil not frozen should be refrigerated and used within 1 week. To store chopped garlic indefinitely in a refrigerator, the garlic should be in a strong vinegar.

I'm pointing this out, because I didn't know it, so maybe someone else doesn't either.  I've never really made/used garlic puree before--I always just chopped fresh or used dried.  Most of the other recipes on the web seem to indicate a 1:2 garlic/oil ratio so that it can be frozen without it solidifying.  Freezing the above recipe resulted in pretty solid blocks of stuff that weren't very easy to use (hence 16g vs. 15g).  I figure more oil might do the trick.


My definition of simmering may have been mistake #2.  I always simmer stuff pretty low after bringing them to the boil.  I think it was fine for this stage of cooking, but I'm not so sure that it was the right thing later.  I'll explain more of what I mean further down.

After simmering covered for 40 minutes (pictures were taken with lid removed, obviously), the oil was floating on top and the vegetables were pretty soft.


I have to say the biggest surprise was how good the base smelled when it was cooking!  Being used to the KD boiled garlic cloud, this was wonderful.  The kitchen smelled really, really good through the whole process.  I guess many of the other bases would smell like this too since they seem to use a similar cooking method.


When blended, I was a little surprised how yellow it turned out to be.  It makes sense from all the turmeric, but this was pretty bright!  Maybe Saffron uses a little extra turmeric so their dishes are extra yellow...

So, then I blended, and blended, and blended, and blended....  My blender only can do 1L at a time, but I was pretty surprised to find I ended up with 4.2L!  I had to improvise a bit for intermediate storage (won't be the first, just wait... ).


So, if I end up making more of this base (or any other bases in roughly this quantity), it's quite clear I need bigger pots!  Next on the list to purchase will be two heavy, stainless stock pots or a large-ish hand blender so I don't have to do all this messing.  That's probably part of why it took so long to make.

Tasted the base, and I think you could almost get away with serving it as a soup.  I couldn't believe it tasted this good.

Now the real challenge:  where in the hell am I going to put the water???


Here's where mistake #3 (needed bigger pot) came together with mistake #2 (simmering too low) to potentially cause the first real problem of this exercise.  Since I knew that if I boiled this quickly I would end up with a yellow kitchen (and very upset wife!), I covered the pot and brought the base to the boil very gently.

I don't know how long it took, but eventually, a slow, rolling boil was achieved.  I then turned the pot back down to low so that it could simmer for the recommended 20-30 min.  However, what I ended up with at the end of the 30 min was a froth-covered pot with a few small pockets of scum.  I skimmed off the scum (and some of the froth) and stirred the froth back into the pot.


Knowing I didn't see any oil, I figured that I hadn't used enough heat.  I got a little braver and turned the heat up to medium.  Very soon afterwards what had been an "even" boil turned into an "uneven" boil.  I'm guessing that this was starting to move more of the oil around, so it would thickly boil for a few seconds, then stop, then come back again.  Lo and behold, after 15 min of this, oil started to gather on the surface as well as some more-serious scum.  I simmered an additional 15 min on medium heat and, after skimming and stirring a few times, ended up with a nice layer of oil forming.


After the base cooled for about an hour or so, it was still pretty warm, but it had developed a nice, oily sheen.



So if I didn't have a big enough pot, I surely didn't have big enough storage containers (most of which were in the fridge with stuff in them anyway), so enter container improvisation idea #2.  Since everyone seems to say you should use around 400ml of base for 1-2 servings, I figured that it would make sense to divide things up into easy-to-store containers based around that volume.  Here's what I came up with ;D:


We use a lot of Evian in our house since that's about all my wife will drink and we also use it for our little guy's bottles.  Therefore, we always have empty 1.5L bottles lying around the place.  I figured about 1.2L per bottle would be a perfect way to store the finished base, as well as being able to support having one or two friends around (if we weren't very hungry).  The best thing, though, is they fit in the bottle storage racks of the fridge, so it doesn't take up a whole bunch of space.

So far, so good.  I'll keep you posted on how it goes.  However, I must say that using the odd 1L bottle in making curries afterwards was much handier than trying to pour it out of any of the other containers we have in the house.  The only downside was that I let the base cool for about 3 hrs before I chanced putting it in the bottles so I was sure they wouldn't melt.

The Madras

I was very curious what the madras would taste like since it was yet again a different way of preparing the final curry to the two other approaches I'd used.  I chopped about 75g of onions (about 1/4 of a large onion or 1/2 a small one) and measured out all of the ingredients while I was making a batch of my pilau rice (tried the colors again:  better, but still a bit too much liquid--it wasn't black this time, though!).

I then pre-cooked some chicken using Curry King's method from here (https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1232.msg10662.html#msg10662).  I was impressed.  Not only was it quick and easy, the end result, as he said, hardly needed chewing.  It was fantastic, and streets ahead of the KD method that I'd been using to date.  I may play around with some of the spices a bit just to see what happens, but I'll never do it the KD way again.

I was a bit skeptical about the color as this base is much more yellow than I've been used to since I add 2x the amount of tomatoes to the KD recipe (the color in the picture is a bit redder than I actually remember it was).  Here's the madras after adding the curry base and chicken and giving them a quick stir to coat.


I followed the recipe pretty-much to the letter.  After about 10 min, the consistency seemed about right and the oil had begun to separate out.  I simmered on medium heat and stirred occasionally.


The color darkened up a bit, but not as much as I would've thought it might.  The madras that I've made previously for my wife (since they're spicy enough for her) were normally a little redder and certainly browner.  I'm guessing that this comes from the combination of the chilli powder (I used Schwartz's Hot Chilli Powder this time) and the Garam Masala I normally use.  Since there's only a teaspoon of the chilli powder, I didn't expect it to do much for the color.  Still, it looks about right in the pan, but it does have more oil on top than it does when I normally make it since there's more oil in the base.


Conclusions

It presented pretty well, and my wife thought it was very good (see above).  I'd be very curious to taste the actual article as well as to see what Saffron's vindaloo is like.  Someone posted something some time back about a chef saying "curries are made in the pan and not in the base," but I really don't think that applies to what I got.

My result was very tasty and full of pretty rich flavor, but it was also pretty sweet compared to other curries that I've had.  Having tasted the concentrated base earlier, I think this madras recipe is very much tied to the base.  There's no salt, and the finished curry tastes like a richer, fuller version of the base.  Maybe that's the way it's supposed to be.  Again, I'm not saying it was bad, I'm just trying to describe my results.

I'm anxious to try to make some other dishes with the base.  I did have a go at my recipe for vindaloo (as in Vindaloo Experiment #1), but I screwed it up because I was blindly following the recipe instead of thinking about what I was doing (it was around midnight by the time I got to make curry for me, so maybe it was because I was tired or maybe I just didn't think).  As a result, I couldn't finish it because it had way too much salt in it (my recipe adds 1tsp in the pan) and it was also way too sweet (maybe lacking tomato puree?).  I may post more about this in a separate thread.

I guess the main lesson here is that be careful when making any recipe with this base that includes salt in the final curry or possibly doesn't add something to offset the sweetness.  I think the Saffron Madras is pretty balanced, if a bit on the sweet side for my personal taste, but I can only imagine how something like CTM would end up without potentially making some adjustments.  It isn't a dish I've made, so I can't comment from personal experience, however.

My final verdict is still undecided.  I like the flavor of the base on its own, but I think it will take some time/tweaking to figure out how to use it to best advantage in making my vindaloo.  Making the base was a more pleasant experience than when making the KD base, that's for sure, and I'm sure I'll come up with something that I'm happy with.  Based on a number of people having success with Darth's Madras, I may look at that to see what's different as well as try and tweak my vindaloo in parallel.

It's all part of the learning experience.  My vindaloo now vs. my first one is much better too, so I didn't really expect the base to be a perfect fit the first time I tried using it for something else.  However, I may need to revise my thinking about matching bases and recipes unless you're really willing to do some thinking/experimenting with the final result.  If it's a pair that works really well, it's highly unlikely that it'll work without some modifications.  Cooking techniques on the final curry can make a huge difference, but that won't make up for unbalanced/improper tastes between the two.

Many thanks to SnS for posting the recipe and dealing with all my annoying questions/clarifications.  Any screw-ups or questionable results are mine and mine alone.  I do wish I could have a representative sample from the restaurant to see if some of these traits and tastes are present in their own finished dishes, but it's unlikely to actually happen.

Hope this was helpful.

ast

Update:  I was getting ready to have another go at making a main course dish with this base, but before I did, I went back and re-read the whole thread.  Apparently, I got confused with the madras recipe because I took the 2 ladles (200ml) to be 2x200ml rather than 200ml total (yes, I see now that it was quite clearly indicated as 200ml in the recipe.  Error between chair and keyboard).  That means that my madras was way off as well as I had started with over 2x as much base.

I'm sure that made a difference as well to my assessment of the finished madras--duh!  :-[.

Again, like I said, any screw-ups were my fault and not SnS's.  I'll let you know how this one turns out too...  Sorry I missed this out of the original post.

Quote from: smokenspices on January 12, 2008, 07:06 PM
I've just weighed a typical unpeeled cooking onion (just purchased at Sainsbury) of about the same size (volume cc's) they used and it is 140 GRAMS (I don't know the volume HAHA). So based on this, 8 - 10 (before peeling) will be no more than 1.5 kg.
Also at Sainsbury are the salad potatoes "Charlotte" (look a bit like large new potatoes but oval). An average size Charlotte spud weighs in at only 80 grams.

Hi SnS,

Thanks for all the info (plus the masses of each of the powders).  I know it's kinda splitting hairs, but I was trying to figure out how much to scale stuff if I wanted to use 1kg of onions.  I was just about ready to halve things, but it's a good thing I didn't.   Not sure yet if I'm going to throw in an extra couple of onions to get it in the 1.1-1.5kg range or just go with 1kg and see what happens.  I think it'll kinda depend on what I feel like tomorrow.

Thanks again.  I'm really looking forward to tasting the result!

Cheers,

ast

Quote from: Jeera on January 12, 2008, 04:37 PM
SS, I don't think your point is clear....... do you mean that it should be 5 tsp of each spice rathern that each being specifically weighed out at 25g ? .... which I assume works out much more than 5 tsp ?

I think what he meant was that it was a "by volume" measure vs. a mass measurement.  In this case it would be an equivalent volume to 25ml of liquid.  The weights will vary greatly as the relative density of each spice is quite different.

SnS:  thanks for the update.  I'm glad I saw this before I made the base.  I was wondering if I was going to have to become a spice merchant since that's pretty much a whole pack of each spice each time you make the base!

Current plan is to make this tomorrow.  One final clarification please:  your 8-10 onions should be about 2kg right?  This would jive with CA's approx 200g representative "medium" onion in the cr0b1 recipe.

Thanks in advance,

ast