Quote from: Bobby Bhuna on January 24, 2008, 04:57 PM
My new favourite is the Safron base. I have tried around 5 from the site now and it gives me the flavour that best resembles my local BIR - Balaka. Who else rates it?

You're ahead of me, Bobby, but I too am a big fan of the Saffron base.  There's still a couple more that I want to try (ifindforyou (Terry's) and the Rajver ones in particular), but I think this one has proven very versatile so far.  As soon as I figure out the best post-freezing technique (going to try a new approach tonight), I think I've got a pretty sound foundation.

Out of curiosity, what were the other bases you tried?

Hi xPatx,

I can't quite say "welcome back" because I wasn't here when you were here last...

Quote from: Curry King on January 24, 2008, 03:59 PM
at one point I was cooking something curry related nearly every night of the week and realised I was obsessed 

I don't know what you're talking about CK... (counting)... I've only made curries 8 days in the last two weeks--including curry for 9 on Sunday and curry for some friends again tonight.

Addictive??  Naaaaahhhhh....

The funny thing is that since I've been really trying to accomplish some specific goals with what I've been doing, I don't really notice.  My wife doesn't see how I can eat this many curries at once, though.  Ah, well.

;D

Cheers,

ast

Quote from: smokenspices on January 22, 2008, 10:22 PM

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Have you tried a small bit of either ambchoor or tamarind?

I used tamerind concentrate when I cooked a Pathia a few weeks back but I'm sure most BIR's use lemon juice. Amchoor (green mango powder) is on my shopping list, as I gather it has both a sweet and sour taste, maybe suitable for Pathia.

Never had nor made a Pathia before.  Lemon juice was on the list, but it somehow seems to have fallen off.  I did buy the lemons, but I keep forgetting about it.  Still, I've never personally noticed much of a sour taste in my vindaloo.

I bought the amchoor (I've seen at least 7 different spellings of this, btw) for another recipe, but it doesn't use that much.  The only pack they had was large enough that I'm trying to work out what else I can do with it so I can use it before the BBE date.  From reading about it and its taste characteristics, I thought it might be an interesting taste with the prawns.  On its own, it isn't bad, but only in small-ish quantities.  I haven't actually used it yet, though.

Quote from: smokenspices on January 22, 2008, 10:22 PM

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From all of the observed reports as well as from some of the videos, the chefs generally dip the chefs spoon into the spice container and come out with an arc that doesn't seem to go past 1/3 to 1/2 of the whole spoon.  Who knows what amount this is.

That's why it was impossible to get the recipe measurements exact at my initial visit!  :

I know... it was rhetorical, but those damn sound effects seem to be broken today! ;D

Quote from: smokenspices on January 22, 2008, 08:56 PM
Nice one AST .. great report. I'll probably try this over the weekend (maybe with prawns though).

Thanks.  I've a thought or two around your prawn problem.  Have you tried a small bit of either ambchoor or tamarind?  Might be interesting.  Next time we see some decent prawns, I might have a go and see.

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It seems that after freezing this base, the oil doesn't want to separate like it used too.  I know I'm cooking it the same way as before, but I've tended to end up with a tad drier curries trying to wait for the oil to separate.

I have also noticed this. Perhaps this is why Raj reckoned the gravy is not as good after freezing it. I wonder what would happen if the gravy was brought back to the boil before using in the curry ?

I was thinking the same thing, but I haven't been quite that organized.  It's just soooo much simpler to pour it out of the bottle than mess with small amounts in a pot.

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60ml lamb stock

How did you make this stock ?

This is the stock obtained from pre-cooking the lamb.  I've taken to reserving the appropriate amount with single or double-sized portions of meat in the freezer.  It works equally well with the chicken too, but my chicken was needing to be eaten or frozen, and I *really* wanted to see how it worked with lamb instead (a fella can only eat so much chicken in a week...).

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I've no idea what they're called, but they look like this

They look like green Thai Dragon chillies (about 2-3 inches long (?) and 6 times hotter than Jalepeno). Did you also use the seeds ?

Thanks for that.  They weren't exactly labeled in the shop, and I've had a tough time trying to find them on the Web.  I'm pretty sure these are the same ones that the chef at Jewel in the Crown (the place I like) uses in my vindaloo.  I always use the seeds and cut them so they're in small rings about 2-3mm wide.  Apparently from what I've read, it's the membrane inside that has all the "power of the pepper" rather than the seeds.  Still, I like the seeds...

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What ... no sooperpics 

Next batch--I promise!

I got it a tad dry cause I was messing with the camera, and my rice looked a bit naff this time around (tried to rush it and it showed).  I still haven't managed to be brave enough to try and snap a picture of the spices when using them dry.  I've got the touch down pretty well now, but it takes a bit more attention than if you make the paste first.

Any preferences for what you want to see?  I have taken pics of most of the intermediate iterations, but they tend to all look the same after awhile:  same pan, same meat, etc., etc.  I figure unless I do something dramatically differently, an "ingredients" shot, maybe a shot of what it looks like when I add the methi (since I don't time anything), finished in the pan and the presented dish?  That's 4, and it'll montage easily enough.  I don't want people getting bored, and I sure don't want to post pictures just for the sake of it.

I've also been thinking about the volume of the spices used.  If you add it all up, the amount of spice mix I posted is 2 1/4 tsp.  I'm not sure yet if this is the right amount, but I know it isn't the wrong amount.  From all of the observed reports as well as from some of the videos, the chefs generally dip the chefs spoon into the spice container and come out with an arc that doesn't seem to go past 1/3 to 1/2 of the whole spoon.  Who knows what amount this is.

From other discussions about the sizes of professional chef utensils, they seem to range from around 150-200ml.  Doing the math, that's gotta mean that the above is a tad under-spiced--assuming the amount of curry base used is 200ml.  If it's 400ml, that's something different indeed, and the proportions could be nearly right.

Part of my plan is to somehow start dropping in to my fav restaurant again.  It's about 40-45 on the train now to get there, but I'm sure that since the chef was interested enough to come out and talk to me before, he'd be interested and willing to share some information too (provided he's still working there).  Until then, if anyone else has any insights, I'd love to hear them.

One other thing I've been thinking about is whether or not the flavors should be balanced relative to each other or relative to the curry base.  I'm a bit of two minds on this one, and it's one of the things I intend to try, meaning, if you add more heat, should/can you also increase the amount of base spices by some proportion so that the flavor remains somewhat constant (or your taste buds explode, whichever happens first! ;D)

I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the recipe.  I may be cooking curry for a friend towards the end of the week which means I'll be thawing out my last bottle of base.  If that happens, I'll re-boil the whole lot and pour it back in the bottle to test the oil theory.

I'm sure it would add to the taste, but I was reading some about using tamarind and ambchoor as preservation agents in traditional Indian dishes.  Maybe adding some to the base might mean you could keep it in the fridge longer.  I've also run across a link indicating that tamarind's used in the "real" Goan version of Vindaloo, so I might give that a go too, but I don't have any at the moment.

Some interesting stuff here on both spices you may or may not know:

Tamarind: http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Tama_ind.html
Ambchoor: http://www.uni-graz.at/~katzer/engl/Mang_ind.html

Cheers,

ast

deet..deet..duh..deet..deet...deet...deet...This just in... the latest results from the curry lab...

Ok, so you'll have to improvise on the sound effects yourselves--think Robin Williams in Good Morning Vietnam.

Wanted to post this so I don't lose it amongst all of my recent notes.  I've been trying a few different things over the past couple of days, and I think this one turned out absolutely brilliantly (of course, after eating this many curries lately, my objectivity may be slipping a little...).  I don't think this is a stopping point because I'm still working on my overall technique and exploring the different effects of spices, etc., but I think I *could* stop here and be pretty happy.

I'd be interested in feedback if anyone else tries this recipe.  From here on, the only variables will be experimenting with different spice mixes.  I'd experimented with vinegar and/or Worcestershire sauce, but neither seemed to really add all that much.  I may try again at some stage, but as a second pass.

I've also tried this with chicken and it works equally well, although pre-cooking didn't use the same ingredients.  This time I only added 1 tsp turmeric to CK's chicken method (I mentioned this previously somewhere in the thread, I think).

Unfortunately, I haven't tried this at Madras heat levels yet, so I'm not sure how well the flavors balance in that case.  I promise that I will try it soon, though.

Andrew's Latest Lamb Vindaloo (Jan 22 edition)

INGREDIENTS

200ml Saffron curry base (shaken, not stirred.... )
3 tbsp vegetable oil (see note 1)
1/4 cooking onion, chopped (approx 40g or so)
2 tbsp minced garlic (approx 2-4 cloves, depending on their size)
1 pre-boiled (but not quite cooked completely), small salad potato, halved
60-80g pre-cooked lamb (see note 2)
60ml lamb stock
2 tsp tomato puree (double-concentrate)
8 small green chillies, thinly sliced (see note 3)
2 tsp extra hot chilli powder (see note 4)
1 large pinch of dried methi leaves

"Haldi's Takeaway" Spice Mix (courtesy of Haldi's recent posts)

1/2 tsp turmeric
1/2 tsp corriander powder
1/2 tsp paprika
1/2 tsp Madras curry powder (see note 5)
1/4 tsp ground cumin

METHOD (basically the same as in the original Madras recipe)

Heat a heavy pan on med-high heat until hot.  Add the oil and wait until it starts moving easily around the pan, but isn't smoking.  Add the onion and garlic and sautee until just beginning to change color.  Add the dry spices and stir continuously, making sure not to burn them.  Wait until you can't breathe and then continue to cook them a bit longer, adding a little base if necessary.

Add the base and stir well to evenly mix the spices and the curry base.  Stir in the tomato paste.  When mixed well, add the chillies, lamb, lamb stock and the potato.  Bring to an energetic boil and reduce to medium.  Stir occasionally to check the consistency.  After about 5 min, stir in the dried methi and reduce to desired consistency, adding some water if it gets too dry.

Sprinkle with coriander leaves (freshly chopped or dry) and serve.

Note 1:

It seems that after freezing this base, the oil doesn't want to separate like it used too.  I know I'm cooking it the same way as before, but I've tended to end up with a tad drier curries trying to wait for the oil to separate.  It still does, but there just doesn't seem to be as much of it.  If you're using fresh, e.g. not frozen, curry base, you can reduce this amount to 2 tsp.

Has anyone else noticed this problem?

Note 2:

I used Curry King's method for cooking lamb (https://curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1915.0.html), except that I used 6 green pods, 5-6 small pieces of cassia bark, no ginger, 1 tsp of turmeric, 2 tsp of garam masala instead of the cumin/coriander mix and a large pinch of dried methi leaves.  There was about 650g of lamb which  was boiled on low for 1 hr and was also boiled with the hip bone and the hock ligaments.

Note 3:

I've no idea what they're called, but they look like this:  http://indianfoodrocks.blogspot.com/2007/10/make-your-green-chillies-last-longer.html

Note 4:

I think what I bought is Raj, but I forgot to write it down before I threw away the package.  It seems to have quite a bit of cayenne in it from both the color and the taste.  I'd say it'd be *roughly* equivalent to 4 tsp of Schwartz hot chilli powder and 1-2 tsp of pure cayenne powder as this was about what I was using before I went shopping at a real spice store.

Note 5:

One of the things I didn't buy when I was at the Indian grocer was Madras curry powder, so I cheated and used Schwartz's Medium Curry Powder.  Probably nowhere close, but it's all I had.

Hi Merlin,

At a best guess, I'd say anything up to about a week +/- a day or two should be ok--especially given the high heat involved in most of the "proper" preparation techniques for the final curries.  The thing about keeping garlic is to manage the low acidity, which can lead to botulism if left on its own.  I don't know if the chillies will add enough to the mix to allow you to keep it longer.

I found this link when I was looking into keeping freshly-made garlic/ginger puree that has some information and suggestions for long-term storage:  http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/encyclopaedia!openframeset&frame=Right&Src=/edible.nsf/pages/garlic!opendocument.  Most of the time, you'll see garlic and chillies preserved in vinegar or using additional preservatives.

I'm no expert (and I surely don't want you to get sick), but I'd say between the above, you should manage ok.  Look at it this way:  it's an excuse to make lots and lots of curries! ;D

Hope this helps,

ast

Quote from: smokenspices on January 19, 2008, 07:35 PM
I really would like someone to come up with a really good accurate (prawn) Madras recipe for use the Saffron base though (Ast is in his curry laboratory soon .. so maybe we'll just have to wait for the Prof to post his results).

By all means, don't wait on me.  If someone has something that works for them, please post it.  My guess from recent discussions here and in other threads, we'll probably have a few variations between us anyway to cater for personal tastes and expectations.

All I was saying was that I would share what I came up with, but apart from also trying what Jeera indicated (sans the garam masala) as a starting point, I'm primarily chasing a lamb and chicken vindaloo which, when I get there, I'll also make sure works as a madras for my wife.  I'm not too big on seafood in my BIR dishes, so the fields wide open, as they say.  Some of the things I'm going to be evaluating when I get a chance will be the effect of some of the many spice mixes on the final dish.

It may take awhile before I hit the curry sweet spot.  No sense in any of us starving in the meantime! ;D

Cheers,

ast

Because neither of us were in any position to cook tonight, we, well I (my wife opted for the Caesar salad), chanced the new-ish takeaway just up the road.  It's one of those "everything" places like we were talking about on another thread, but, as I said there, it is supposed to be owned by an Indian guy who used to run a restaurant in town.

Anyway...

Rather than going for the "Chicken Madras-Vindaloo", I figured I'd branch out a bit, and they had this dish, Lamb Laal Maas, on the menu.  According to them, "a hot & spicy dish, with fresh & dried chillies for added pungency, cracked black pepper & corriander (sic) seeds."

I didn't see any coriander seeds, but I did notice chopped up coriander stems and leaves.  It was actually pretty good.  Here's what it looked like:


Those black things are the fresh chillies that have been roasted/blackened.  There was quite a bit of chilli powder in there as well.  I'd say the lamb wasn't really pre-cooked, or, if it was, it wasn't pre-cooked in very many spices.  It was tender, but it didn't have any additional flavors.

I was guessing that they probably used some chopped tomatoes given both the color and the tomato bits that I saw in it.  I'm pretty sure it had quite a bit of garlic in it too, but I'm not 100% sure what all the bits were.  I also guessed that they might've used about 50/50 tomatoes and curry base, but then I went hunting for a recipe and found this:

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Lal maas means ?red meat?, from the Kashmiri red chilli powder that naturally colours the dish. We make our dishes traditionally but in this case we cut down the chilli heat even though it was still quite hot (as you can see from the recipe) and this was the hottest dish on the menu. Rajasthan is very hot and in common with other hot climates, the people of Rajasthan also like their food chilli hot: Pravin told me the Indian expression ?iron cuts iron?, so hot food in hot climates. He also said that the good water in Rajasthan, which rises out of the sand, makes food particularly digestible.

For Lal maas, we used leg of lamb and to make it, ask your butcher to cut through the leg bone at the narrow end for the pieces on the bone. In India, however, the dish would be made with various cuts of lamb. Pravin learned this recipe while at Rajvilas in Jaipur and has since adapted it in much the same way home cooks do across Rajasthan. For this recipe, he did not include the method for smoking the clove masala as it needs real care and experience to avoid hurting oneself or starting a fire, but if any of you are curious about this, post a comment or send a message and we?ll post this for you.


Lal maas

1kg lamb (mix of meat on the bone and cubed boneless meat)
30 whole dried red chillies
150ml vegetable oil + 25ml for tempering
50g ginger/garlic paste
60g garlic (finely chopped)
200g onion finely sliced
100g tomato chopped
5g green cardamom
3g black cardamom
3g bay leaves
3g cinnamon stick
3g cumin seed
20g Kashmiri red chilli powder
15g coriander powder
5g turmeric powder
5g cloves
salt to taste
6 cups strong lamb stock

Heat oil in large handi or pot. Add all whole spices except cloves. Add onion and stir-fry until onions are golden brown. Add ginger/garlic paste and keep stir-frying one or two minutes, then add meat. Increase flame to high and stir-fry to sear for 7-8 minutes or until meat changes colour. Reduce flame to medium, cover and simmer, stirring occasionally, for 10 minutes.

Uncover and stir-fry until oil leaves the sides of the pot. Add all the powdered spices and continue to stir-fry for 2-3 minutes. Now add chopped tomatoes and again stir-fry until oil leaves the sides of the pot.

Add lamb stock, bring to a boil, reduce to low heat, cover and simmer, stirring occasionally, until the meat is cooked and gravy is the consistency of a thin sauce. Remove from heat and adjust seasoning to taste.

For the tempering:
Heat the remaining oil in a frying pan, add cloves and chopped garlic, stir-frying over medium heat until light golden colour. Pour tempering over the meat and immediately cover with a lid. Allow to stand a few minutes and serve with steamed basmati rice.

(from http://baburlondon.blogspot.com/2007/04/hi-its-emdad-again.html)

This one didn't have a picture, but from other pictures I saw on the web, it looks like the more traditional recipes seem to be a bit drier than what I had.  I'm sure it wouldn't take too much experimenting to come up with something that would be close.

Anyone ever had this dish or have a BIR-ish recipe for it?  Not knowing what it's supposed to taste like, I think the one I had could be improved a bit.  I'd start with using one of the more flavorful pre-cooking methods for the lamb.

Any pointers to something closer to the above would be most appreciated.

Cheers,

ast

Quote from: Cory Ander on January 18, 2008, 11:04 PM

Quote from: ast on January 18, 2008, 02:29 PM
I'll go lurk for a while.

You're probably joking, but don't do that AST.  You've made some great and interesting posts to date; please continue to do so! 

Yep.   Thanks for the feedback though.  In this case, "lurking" involved painting, putting up wallpaper, replacing outlet boxes and filling in dents in plaster.

Quote from: smokenspices on January 18, 2008, 09:13 PM
I would appreciate someone posting on this thread an accurate Madras recipe suitable for 200 ml of this particular gravy ... anyone up for it?

SnS, I'll be happy to post where I end up with what I'm doing now, but it isn't quite ready yet (going a bit backwards with the last try, unfortunately).  Like you, I took onboard Jeera's comments, but I haven't yet added any garam masala. It'll probably be next week before I get back to the laboratory.

Of course, I suppose the key word here is "accurate"... ;D

Then I must be talking too much...  :-[

I'll go lurk for a while.

No worries, mate.