Okay, I've had a couple of experiments with the base now.  (On Saturday, I actually had a bought curry from my favourite local takeaway, so my cooking over the past couple of days has had a lot to live up to!)

It might be worth mentioning here that although the base was yellow after pureeing, when I returned it to the pan and cooked on high for 10 minutes and low for 5, it actually turned a caramel brown colour.  Of the four or five takeaways I've ordered from over the past couple of years, all but one of them has a finished vindaloo this colour, so that's not necessarily a bad thing.  However my favourite takeaway produces a vindaloo that's bright orangy red - really quite vibrant by comparison.

Anyway on Sunday I wanted to add as little to the base as possible, to get the flavour of it.  I brought 3/4 of a pint of it to the boil in 1 chef's spoon of oil. Then I added pre-cooked meat, 2 tsp of chilli powder (well, cayenne pepper actually - my local market's spice stall was out of chilli this week)  and 1/2 teaspoon of salt.  After three or four minutes I reduced it to a simmer and added 1/4 teaspoon of ground dried methi.  Four minutes later I turned off the heat, sprinkled fresh coriander and let it stand for five minutes before serving (about the time it takes to drive to my house from my  local takeaway!).

And... it was nice.  A nice, tasty  curry.  But no trace of 'that' taste or smell.

So last night I heated a chef's spoon of oil, and added a teaspoon each of very finely chopped onion and green pepper, sizzling on high heat untill the onion started to colour.  Then I added a splash of base and evaporated it off.  Then I added cayenne (as above), 1/2 teaspoon of asafoetida, salt and a teaspoon of spice mix from this site - the one Pete posted which is all equal measures (can't for the life of me remember which thread it's in but I'll do a search after this).

I stirred this for about 30 seconds and then added the rest of the curry gravy.  Then I added 100ml of the Oxo 'Real Stock'.  This stuff is really watery, and smells of - er - well, just chicken, really!  But I thought I might as well try it.  I let this bubble away for 5 minutes, then turned it down to simmer so the oil could separate and be skimmed off.  Added coriander, and left it to rest.

This was good - I've had disappointing  bought curries that were about as good.  And that seems to be where I'm at no matter what I've tried so far.

If anything, it was a little over-rich and over-spiced.  And it was brown.  Tonight I'm going to do exactly the same but leave out the spice mix and chicken stock - it's clearly nothing like Pete's jelly recipe (and nothing like the stock that produces, I would think).  But I'm going to cook it before I go out tonight, and reheat it in a casserole dish when I get home - to make sure my palette's clear before I taste it.

Thanks, Mark, for sharing the base recipe with us.  I'm really looking forward to hearing the results from people that are cooking it in bulk, and any more info from the chef himself about recipes.  Even if he's right - that we'll never be able to do it at home, no matter what - it's still really interesting and fun to try it anyway. And tasty!

Hi everyone

I made a scaled down version of this base on Friday. It's been sitting in the fridge and I'm going to make a curry up tonight with it.  I followed George's procedure (thanks, George!) but scaled to two pounds of onions - scaled down from the full recipe, not up from George's.  It's given me about four litres of base.

However,  I must have done something wrong somewhere.  It doesn't smell or taste much different from my 'tweaked' KD version at this stage - despite the extra ingredients.  That's not a criticism of the recipe or anything - I was just expecting the celery and pepper to make more of a difference.  Another problem is that despite pureeing for over two minutes (two litres at a time) I haven't managed a very smooth result. I'm wondering if this is because I didn't cook the base for long enough - but I did cook it for the full hour rather than 30 mins before blending.

A very likely explanation is that my blender blades are worn out after three years of use! :  George, how smooth was your puree after 30 mins?

One thing that did happen, though -  after having browned the garlic and ginger, I added the spice paste to the hot oil and wallop! The 'smell' hit me.  Bingo! I thought.  But then it disappeared when I added the onions.  I assumed this was just me getting used to the smell, but it's definitely gone from the base now - it just smells of onions and garlic.

Anyway, proof of the pudding and all that...  I've got a carton of Oxo 'Real Stock' (chicken) liberated from my partner's larder. I didn't get round to making up the proper version this time.  I'll intoduce it bit by bit during the dish stage and see what happens - if it makes the right sort of difference, I'll try adding it to the base.

Ian
--.

Hiya

Sorry, I don't mean to butt in - but as you're talking about asafoetida and fenugreek, which I use in my curries - I use between a quarter and a half level teaspoon of asafoetida and about a quarter of a level teaspoon ground fenugreek leaves, for one curry.  The asafoetida is added as soon as the base sauce comes to the boil, and it really does mellow during cooking.  The fenugreek I add about four minutes before serving, when the sauce is at a simmer.  Personally, I won't go near ground fenugreek seeds anymore, as I poisoned too many curries in the early days with the stuff!

Hope this helps.

Ian
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Ah - I've just noticed you've got the e-book version here on this site!

Here's the passage from 'Introduction - Herbs and Spices':

>>Fenugreek (dry leaves). Not to be confused with fenugreek seeds, this is a dark green leafy plant similar in height to coriander. The flavour is not as subtle as that of coriander and becomes more concentrated when the plant is dried. Known as 'methi' it is available from Asian grocers in both its fresh and dry form. It is the dried ingredient that is used in restaurant cooking and although methi is not perhaps an essential herb for restaurant curries, it certainly add that 'extra something' so it is worth trying if you can get it.
To prepare for use, pick out and discard any straw-like pieces. Grind in a coffee grinder, sieve, and store in a glass jar. Do not forget to label.

Ian
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Hi Blondie

It's mentioned in the book's introduction, where the spices are listed and described.  It talks about dried fenugreek leaves, and then (from memory - I'll check when I get home) says something like "grind in a coffee grinder and store in an airtight jar".  I was surprised when I read it - I'd never heard of anyone grinding the dried leaves before.  I suppose it spreads the flavour more quickly and uniformly when you add it to the curry.  But it doesn't mention fenugreek seeds in the introduction (once again, as far as I can remember) so I assume that the 'ground fenugreek' referred to throughout the recipes is the same stuff talked about in the  intro.

I could be wrong, though, so I'll definitely be checking when I get home! 

Ian
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I think I see where you're coming from on this.  That's why I increased the ginger and garlic and backed off the spices in my struggles with KD.  The thing is, taste and aroma are so closely linked that it's difficult to define.  I would say that the spices add 'notes' to the curry - I tried making a dish with just base sauce (only turmuric and paprika for colour, in that) and salt and chilli.  But it wasn't the same.

Mind you, I think I'm going to give up on garam masala altogether.  I can't taste/smell it in bought curries, either. The 'spice mixes' shown on this site are the way to go, for me.

Hi Blondie

Yes, you're quite right - the instructions are confusing because of this.  When KD says 'ground fenugreek'  she means dried fenugreek leaves, ground up!  So a 'pinch of ground fenugreek' in the recipies  is actually more like 1/2 a teaspoon or so of dried fenugreek leaves, I suppose.

Grinding the leaves is a bit of a business.  The fine powder seems to leak out of any gaps in the mill and fill the air.  My whole flat smells of it for days afterwards.

>>The finished sauce is just so far off what you hope for, but near enough to know it could be done.

Yep, that about sums it up, Pete!

... and, as I'm working from memory here - I've just realised i forgot to mention the cumin!  1/2 teaspoon added along with the garam masala and fenugreek! :

Hi everyone.  'Infrequent Ian' here.

There's been some talk in threads about the KD recipes.  Some of it's geting a bit heated (pardon the pun!) and I'd like to leave that behind, in this post.  But as there seems to be a division between those who think the KD approach basically works and those who don't, I thought I'd just add my thoughts on its pros and cons, and let you know how I've been tweaking it over the years. I'm not sticking up for it in any way - it's still not close enough.

First of all - and this has been mentioned before - although we all try to describe 'The Taste' and we seem to be able to agree on certain aspects of it, it's massively subjective.  It's entirely possible that some of you would try a vindaloo from my favourite local takeaway, and decide that it just doesn't 'do it' for you.  When I visit my friends in Southend, they order from a very posh and expensive takeaway which obviously uses the very best ingredients but for me, the meal just doesn't hang together (in terms of taste) in the way that I prefer.  My local favourite is positively cheap by comparison, but it's their food's taste and texture that I'm trying to replicate.  So I may be chasing something different from you altogether!

My finished KD curry has a very similar texture to my local's.  It tastes fairly light and 'clean'.  When I tried Pete's excellent Brick Lane recipe, both I and my partner agreed that - while it tasted great - the sauce seemed to have an emulsified oil texture in the mouth.  This is probably because I pureed the  base without removing the floating oil first.  It wasn't unpleasant, but for our palettes it was a little over-rich.  So for me, the KD method of pureeing boiled onions before adding oil seems to get me closer to my goal.

I agree that the KD book falls down in the individual dish recipes, and that the base sauce in itself is bland.  What the dish cooking method has going for it - in my opinion -
is that the rather watery base sauce evaporates down during the 5 minute boil, and then the oil separates and floats during the 4 or so minutes of simmering.  To me, this just looks and feels right and deems to make sense.  But the dish recipes all seem overspiced and oversalted, and the addition of so much Garam Masala turns the sauce a muddy brown.  My local's is always golden (apart from the Phall!) so this tells me I'm going off the rails.  Then again, some people here have reported seeing brown base sauces in BIR kitchens...

Here's how I've got my  best results for a vindaloo to date.  I'm not suggesting that if you try it, you'll like it!  But just for info (and to prove that I do actually do some cooking!):

Base sauce:  I use twice as much garlic as the recipe  says and one-and-a-half times as much ginger.  I roughly chop and fry the garlic (just golden, not brown) before adding it to the ginger and water and pureeing.  This seems to blend in better (in terms of taste) and also - I don't know if this is important - seems to stop the onion mixture going that insipid green colour.  Then straight on as the book says - although most recently, I added  2" of coconut block and a green pepper when boiling the onions (inspired by Pete's recipe) and it was very nice.

On to the tomato, paprika and oil stage, and instead of using  225g tinned tomatoes and their juice,  I drain the tinned tomatoes thoroughly and puree enough to get 225g after emptying the blender.  I've also tried doubling the amount and that worked well.  Then straight on as the book says.

When it comes to the dish, I use 3/4 pint of base for one portion.  How on earth are you supposed to get 3 to 4 portions out of that as the book says?!  When I've finished, the base has reduced to just over 1/2 a pint.

I bring to the boil and add cooked meat and chilli powder - but I add 1/4 to 1/2 a teaspoon of asafoetida too.  1/4 of a teaspoon of salt is enough for me - a whole teaspoon seems practically poisonous.  I boil this furiously for five minutes - but with a lid on.  I know BIRs don't use a lid, but this is mainly to save my kitchen from splatters!

Then I lower the heat ad add just 1/2 level teaspoon of the KD Garam Masala, and the tip of a teaspoon's worth of ground fenugreek leaves.  And instead of adding half the chopped coriander after two minutes and simmering for a further two, I just sprinkle the coriander immediately before serving.  Any sooner and it seems to discolour the dish and lose all its magic.

Now, to my palette, if I could just get the smoky toffee taste/smell into this, I think I'll have pretty much cracked it.  Which is why I've got to try the chicken jelly next time.  I agree with Pete that chicken curries will have this quality to a degree, but it's not as pronounced in mine as it is in my local takeaway's.  I think if it iis the missing factor, they must add it even if the curry is going to contain chicken anyway.

Plus there's lots of other things to try from the excellent info provided on this site, not to mention comlete alternatives to KD - all of which I intend to get round to, when I can afford it!

I find exactly the same thing happens to me.  Sometimes I order an extra vindaloo (to bring the price up to the 'free delivery' minimum).  I keep it to microwave the next day but when I do, the smoky toffee taste seems to almost disappear.  But it's still there if I taste the dish cold before microwaving it...