used top half leg of lamb. produced 600g of big chunks, half slow cook 3hr 60C followed by marinade overnight, other half marinade 24hrs. it als produced 150g of small chunks which were pan fried.

all 3 batches tasted good but all note quite there:

1) pan fry and 24hr marianade tasted the best but both chewy
2) slow cook and overnight marinade tender but lost that juiciness and expectation of how it should taste

going fwd:
1) need to try the kiwi
2) try 3day acid marinade for improved tenderness
3) explore more expensive cuts - the 11£/kg leg was actually £19 usable meat


the marinade a cut down Livo's:
2tsp lime juice
2 tbsp virgin olive oil
0.5 tsp salt
1 tsp oregano

meat prep took 30mins:
1.4kg top half leg, 500g waste (35%), 650g big cubes, 150g small cube, 50g stew meat

Phil,

yes for sure needs to be on bbq. the pan fry being that i have complete control to assess the toughness as the meat cooks - can take out pan cut in half and taste or put back in pan if not quite there .

Ghoulie.

your shawama recipe is a 10 and 1 of the tastes i add to slow cook for lamb (hoi sin and kleftico the others)

possibly not for everyone. i generally use it for meat going into wraps with a salsa.

after much messing and bad results this details where i got to. there was background reading done at amazingribs.com and seriouseats.com

left to decide is if foil makes a useful enough contribution. in a standard oven stage3 at 70C would work.

# starting point
experiments on low temperature cooking  in 1969 showed that benjamin Thompson's overnight meat cooking temp never exceeded 70C

#conclusions:
1) very low temp not worth effort+ prone bacteria (40,50,55C)
2) Finishing on BBQ max 10 min turning ea side otherwise too much blackened bits
3) if not using foil must be +lid to prevent surface drying out

#standard method (topside, lamb shoulder, brisket)

stage 1 - 60C 12 hrs (foil+lid)
stage 2 - 65C 12 hrs (foil)
stage 3 - 68C 5-9 hrs (foil)(use meat thermometer at center, stop when 68C)
stage 4 - allow rest in liquid 30min
stage 5 - optional 10min/side BBQ

BACKGROUND INFO

# Aim: Juiciness & tenderness

# meat protein states:
denatured myosin=yummy 50-60C
denatured actin=yucky 66-73C

optimal texture 60-67C : myosin and collagen will have denatured

# process of meat cooking:

40C, proteins start denature.
50C, collagen begins contract.
55C, collagen starts softening.
68C, collagen denatured gelatin
70-75C, meat turns grey
100C, water in meat evaporates
120C maillard boiled aroma
150C maillard roast aroma
190C (160-204C) Caramelization (breakdown of sugars)

rare (<60C)
medium (57-63C)
medium well (63-68C)
well done (68C)

Phil, Livo,

thoughts much appreciated.

the "fat" content or smoke taste is not a priority as the tikka or dry rub is the real taste in this dish. been through mild torture making my own burgers finally realizing the flipping and flaming of the fat so critical (20% fat needed).

from what u say feel i have a way forward as a 2nd go.

Livo's marinade is it in a nut shell. also "scorches the outside leaving the middle pink" is the other part. dropping the yogurt fits the bill.

have made souvlaki in the past but had the same problem of toughness. this u don't get in chicken.

so plan is
1) use lamb leg 1.5" cube
2) oven slow cook at 60C on open rack (how long who knows say 1hr)
3) marinate per livo say 24hrs
4) pan fry rocket heat

for info and with hindsight of 1st go used my gas bbq and adding 4 sticks will have killed the heat. the yogurt marinade held back the scorching.

for info tikka is IFFU

turkish mix (units volume)

6 paprika
2 garlic powder
1 oregano
1 onion powder
1 white pepper
1/2 salt
1/4 dry mint
1/4 cumin

greek mix (this is still in work and not quite right)
1 cumin
1 garlic
3/4 onion powder
1/2 paprika
1/2 oregano

am in need of sanity check on how to approach. i don't see quick fix but a lot of trial and error using small portions.

rekindled interest comes from eating in turkey and realizing bbq lamb can be very very good much better than anything bought or cooked in the uk.

the nearest example i can give is the equivalent to pink best quality beef rump steak - juicy with texture but not tuff. have cooked rack of lamb (lamb loin) in the oven to pink but even this is still tuff.

torture to date:
1) from 976bar original lamb tikka post tried kiwi fruit. it turned the lamb into mush and the bbq finished meat awful. it was that bad i have no written record - i think i tenderized in the kiwi for 40 mins before washing off, then marinade and bbq
2) asked a trusted butcher who recommended neck fillet - this was worse than 1st go - neck fillet has fat and sinu which is impractical to remove. the fat taste is overwhelming. to correct then pan fried to crisp/remove the fat but side effect meat overcooked


plan:
1) use leg of lamb - lean and easy to cube (lamb rump too small to be commercial)
2) first option use kiwi fruit to tenderize but say 10 mins max then wash off
3) second option oven slow cook at 60C to keep it pink and not loose water
4) the turkish lamb was finished on bbq but looked already part cooked (was on skewers)

unknowms
1) is acid too brutal for lamb (many appear to have had success) - will it kill the pinkness


aim to use 976bar instructions with confidence
"I just put the sizzler plate on a low heat for about 10 minutes, then turned the heat up added a drizzle of oil then put the onion slices and sliced red pepper on. The immediate infusion of the onion and pepper cooking is addictive. I left these to cook for about 3 minutes, turning them otherwise they will burn, then I added the lamb tikka and tossed the lot around the sizzler for about five minutes until the onions and peppers were cooked and the lamb was warmed through but not too much so as to dry it out."

thanky all,

have realised there is a limit (takes a lot longer) to my ability to learn without you all.

not sure how long its been.

had other more pressing areas of interest:

1) learn flavor balance (976bar) on my non curry mains to get to a 10 on them
2) pizza get temp up from 300C to 400C targeting 2ish min bake and adopt poolish dough
3) meat oven slow cooking inspired by turkish lamb kuzu (cooked in tandoor)
4) crock pot curry suited work life and family, local takeaway suits my need for real stuff

these interest have come to an end and i need to bottom a few remaining curry niggles:

1) bbq lamb skewers ultimately to use my iff tikka on it along with herb mixes like turkisk and greek
2) on bir curry side revisit smoke and oil

best wishes you all

daveyham,

Many thanks - can you give gist of CBM's method.

Onions is a niece idea and pinned as potential. So far in effort for simplicity had thought of buying BIR portion, say coarse chop, gentle reheat, repeating over say 3 days.

Thoughts being from reclaiming oil from base and how difficult it is to get the oil to take on the flavour. Thought being to rely on the debris in the oil giving the same effect.

Trouble is i don't know what's key in the oil - the ingredients or the repeated hot frying process - or probably both. I also don't know what effect it gives c/w chip/chicken oil. I think in short im hoping for a smell of cardboard.

Livo,

Many thanks will have a search. Am sure can be done just how good c/w tandoor.

Haldi and curry2go have raised bhaji oil in past.

Ive had 2 goes using old oil from mainly chicken and chip frying.

On 1st go used too much and 2 nd too little.

Trouble is I will never get close to BIR stuff as I just don't make bhaji very often

Question is - could there be shortcut to making at home.

Would be interested in anyone who makes at home or has had taste of the real stuff.