I've been very quiet on this site - most impressed by the passion of the people here and their application of both science and art to this lengthy quest. Ever since my first delicious BIR curry in 1960 I have been struggling to match that so-elusive taste and flavour. I must have cooked over a thousand curries since then - often starting with renewed hope that I might have hit upon the real secret this time but never, never so far, scoring my own effort any better than about 50%. "Nice" curries, certainly but NOT BIR.

And now here we have the results of Panpot's meticulous and tenacious quest (some people never give up!). In addition to the praise he's getting from the very critical people here who have already tried his recipes; what a very nice personality emerges from his postings! - Generous and without the slightest hint of grandstanding after having, apparently, cracked open a very crucial problem "the final 5%" somebody said.

OK I shall try to do the Bhuna this week and will post again after but, of course, from a guy who has done a thousand failed curries over 40 years, you'd have to be skeptical unless I started to rave at the result!

1960, Chittagong Restaurant, opposite West Brompton underground station (London).  I notice the Old Timers here go on about "curry not being what it was" and the younger crowd can be heard to mutter "maybe he forgot to put his teeth in .." But I do think they tasted different back then and I should love to try Chittagong's lamb Madras again! Sadly they have long gone but the big cemetery is still there ...

I am convinced that garlic and probably onions play a major part in "smokey taste". Also, I am always frustrated that I can't get a lot of "garlicy taste" into my cooking and so I made a new experiment. Because I believe garlic taste gets destroyed by over-cooking.

I blended a whole bulb of garlic with a thumb-sized piece of ginger, together with water and made a fine, thick puree.

On this occasion I was making a Thai curry so I fried onions in a LITTLE oil, with fresh chillies and curry powder I had bought in Malaysia (two table spoons, heaped). Fried a bit, all together, then added a can of coconut milk and salt. Stewed the lot for about 40 minutes, slowly.

Then, I took my puree and with a fair bit of oil, I fried it - swirling all the time. It smelled 'raw' and I kept on frying until the water was mostly gone and it was JUST starting to brown. Then I dumped this into the stew as I muttered "Take that!". Stirred and stopped cooking. Before serving I added a lot of basil leaves, chopped medium (basil aroma is quickly lost when heated, which most Italian chefs seem to ignore!).

This 'curry' tasted very nice. Not BIR but, the point is, the late addition of the garlic seemed to make a big difference and if I had flambe'd that puree, I might have got very very close to a good smokey taste! I say this and I contribute this because I felt I made progress and lost nothing by the late addition of the garlic/ginger.

Spotty

And, by the way, we can all see the effects of 'partition': notice how the oil takes the colour of paprika and turmeric so much more strongly than does the water gravy - thus we gaze into a pot with a great grin upon seeing the highly authentic colour of the surface (floating oil) - only to have that grin fade into a scowl when the pot has been stirred - and the anaemic quality of the underlying water gravy is exposed. As with the coloured essences, so too with the flavourful ones.

Spotty

Quote from: Bobby Bhuna on October 03, 2008, 09:00 PM


I'm no oil pussy - I use a fair bit, both in the base and in the curry. Not as much as the BIRs must be by my reckoning, because my curries never have that 2mm+ layer on the top the next day.

How much are you guys using? I tend to use about 200ml - 300ml per 6 onion base and a good 4 or more tbsp at the curry stage. I'm thinking more! Who's with me?

Dammit I have to put the oil in when the wife is not looking -if she sees I say "Don't worry, dear, we shall skim of the oil after it's cooked!" Like Hell we shall

I remember my "A" level chemistry - partition coefficient - to demonstrate they would take a dye (here it is an essential oil like oil of clove) and add water in a test tube and shake. The water would take on a tinge of colour. Then they added a solvent and shake - here it's hot oil - and the solvent would take on a brilliant colour. The dye was seen to be 'partitioned' at a much higher concentration into the solvent than into water. Oil is therefore the 'transfer medium' in much cookery, which extracts the essential oils from the spices and delivers them to the meat etc. No doubt it also (and maybe this is even more important) delivers the taste to the tongue and the aroma to the olfactory apparatus!

In contemplating the various spices I find that I separate them into two broad categories: "fragrant" - clove, cardamom, cinnamon, bay and "dark" or "savory" like cumin, methi, black cardamom, corriander. My believe is that a 'right' curry must have a correct balance between these ying and yang components!

I had a "butter chicken" on Saturday, served at a golf club and it had more "BIR" taste (yes, that "smoky" aroma was evident) than I have ever produced at home. Infuriating.

Spotty

Quote from: JerryM on September 15, 2008, 05:35 PM
I?ve carried out a few trials on spice/oil frying. The results were not obvious to me or as expected.

Jerry, those splatters LOOK so damn authentic they make my mouth water! A very interesting scientific experiment.

I did a few humble efforts myself, all with dry spices, and there was nothing whatever worth reporting. My house still smells mostly of old socks.



Spotty

Quote from: JerryM on September 14, 2008, 10:53 AM


it's a good point to try reducing the cumin (the generally accepted ratio being 2:1 coriander : cumin although i feel happier around 3 or even 4).

I do wonder about coriander - it seems to add so little to my curry yet it is always emphasized. I was in an Asian supermarket in Croydon the other day and there were, literally, sacks of ground coriander. That started a thought process:

(1) These sorts of quantities could only be bought by Indian restaurants
(2) If they buy coriander separately, there must be a good reason
(3) Is fried coriander an important element in BIR taste?
(4) Since coriander alone smells so insipid, does it need to be fried to come alive?

It seems to me that instead of setting out to make a curry, the right approach is to have a pan of hot oil and keep frying different spices until the house smells like an Indian restaurant. Imagine the effect on property value after, however.

Spotty

You know it isn't just Indian food that poses this problem. How many people can honestly claim to have been able to make (good) Chinese restaurant food? Chinese chefs, like the Indians, use very high temperatures and you see the wok literally burst into flames as part of the process. They too have their own version of the 'smoky taste' and what comes out of their woks cannot seem to be reproduced at home. There is a TASTE there that I should dearly love to emulate. Again, my own Chinese food tastes pretty nice but in no way does it compare to the best restaurant food. We are not looking for 'nice' here - we want to be astounded!
Chinese chefs DO use ingredients that are officially illegal (like boracic acid in the prawns to keep them crispy) and flaming the pan like that will surely crack the oils and form some nasty byproducts (and they, like the Indians, use a lot of oil). Chinese (and I think Indian) chefs also slip in a lot of monosodium glutamate (I tried, no real benefit at home).

I even once had an ex Indian restaurant owner working for me and he gave me a recipe, but it was like all the others! - I should have asked him over to cook! But maybe that was why he worked for me instead of his own restaurant.



Spotty

Quote

Haldi Posted on: September 10, 2008, 10:42:57 PM
But do you think this "singeing" of ingredients could be it?

I have thought this (for most of the  50 years I have been trying) - back in 1960 an Indian fellow told me "first you must BURN the curry powder!" but easier said than done. And, you'd think, that if the ingredients were right, that in just one or two of those hundreds of curries I have made, there would be one cock-up which would have produced the definitive article! Has not happened. Doubtless several knowing Indian chefs are watching our feeble attempts here with great amusement.

I agree with Ghanna - in my experience (almost 50 years) and hundreds of attempts I have not yet 'done it' - and friends (including bona fide Indians) who make the claim, after hours of internet time, have not so far impressed me sufficiently.

Problems are:

(1) I can't reproduce the 'smokey taste'
(2) Ths spice fragrances do not go into the meat
(3) the sauce just does not smell right, despite trying multiple garam masalas and always cumin, fenugreek leaves, cardamom, ground coriander. SOMETHING IS MISSING!!

My curries are just 'nice' - most edible, but the similarity to the elusive BIR aroma eludes me!

I have tried LOTS of oil at high temperatures - and flambeing; frying the spices on the theory that their essences are best tranferred via the oil medium (partition coefficient); being sensitive to the fact that some essential oils are destroyed by heat and trying a composite of fried AND unfried spices.

Excuse me now, I have a pot of curry on the go upstairs ...