Quote from: JerryM on March 23, 2008, 06:36 PM
please explain what you've done and what you've measured so we can understand a little better

Excellent suggestion jerry! 

As you probably know, it was your thread about adding sugar to the lynette baxter spice mix that started me thing about this and prompted my question.  I assumed that the spices needed to be fried at far higher than 100C (to release their flavours and fully cook them) and that the sugar in your spice mix would therefore melt and burn.  So rather than just speculate, I thought Id go and measure what actually happens in practice. 

I have no doubt that most of us struggle to get anywhere near the taste and smell of a DECENT bir curry, when making them at home, although we many of us often kid ourselves that we can.

There are clearly differences between what birs do and what we do (or can do) at home which account for these differences.  Otherwise there wouldnt be a difference.  And I dont believe that it is entirely down to "experience".

So, I thought i would measure my pan to see  how hot it actually got at the front end of making a curry (given yours and santas comments in the other thread).

So i used a 32cm cast iron wok.  I heated it on my largest gas ring 12MJ/h (3.3kW)

I used an infrared thermometer to measure how hot the pan was as it started to smoke.  It was over 220C (this is the upper limit of my thermometer).

I then added about 4 tablespoons of canola oil and heated it until just started to smoke.  It was over 220C.

I then added 1 chopped onion and fried it for 5 to 10 minutes.  The temperature of the onion was between 90C and 110C until it began to brown after 5 minutes or so (gas was always on full).  Only once the onion began to brown (a visual sign that the temperature was rising, probably because most of the water had evaporated) the temperature rose to 130C to 150C.

I then added a reasonably runny spice paste (water plus ground spices) and the temperature of the ingredients immediately dropped to 80C to 90C and remained there for several minutes (even when the spice paste was "churping" and "cratering" jerry).

I then added uncooked chicken cubes.  The temperature of the ingredients dropped to 60C to 90C and never got any hotter.

Hmmmm, now people can pick fault in my rough and ready check and avoid the real question that should be asked (im not asking it again)

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i know what your getting at and i'm 100% attentive - do we all need to buy a propane burner or can we get the BIR taste on our measly standard electric hob (mines is a 1.5kw) or gas hob

I think thats premature jerry, until we have answered the original question.  Are these temperatures hot enough to fully release the flavours of the spices (damn it!  I asked the question again!).  Arguable they are?

I think the real problem with weedy domestic cookers is their inability to MAINTAIN a decent high temperature when ingredients are added (clearly, this is the case from my results)

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i think the answer is yes but Domi has now got me uncertain

You probably shouldnt be unduly side-tracked by those who are "satisfied" with their results jerry (not if youre after replicating a decent bir curry that is)

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please use your prob to measure the temp of the hob itself on full wack. i presume you are aiming it inside the pan

Greater than 220C is all i can say (the upper limit if my thermometer)

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in short i am now gutted - maybe its the oil that's effectively burnt in the BIR that gives the smokey taste (ie before anything is added)

I doubt that they burn the oil jerry 

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 05:51 PM

Funny, I've read posts where people state they have got the desired results.....

With respect domi people (like you) being satisfied with their results is not the same as fully replicating the taste and smell of a decent bir curry is it?  Even haldi says he still cant do it and doesnt know why.  And I beleive he is representative of most of us in that regard. 

And whilst we still dont know why, surely we should be receptive to questions like these.  Surely the more we question and understand the basic food science the better off we are?  Or are you also going to disagree with that too lol? 

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I would say, however that surely different spices take different times (if you really want to get that anal about it)

Thats not anal domi its actually a very good point.  Isnt that precisely why different whole spices should be roasted individually for different amounts of time (as chris pointed out in another thread).  In the context of this discussion, maybe they should also be individually roasted at different temperatures too to maximise the release of their flavours? 

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so it still comes down to being able to tell if and when a spice is at the peak tasting/smelling point, which only comes with experience

Domi, i cant understand why you refuse to see the simple logic here?  If someone aint getting their pan hot enough, and never has done (because they use a piddly domestic hob and add the spices with the onions, garlic, pastes, water, etc) all their experience is maybe of bad practice.  And some people will (seemingly) never question if this is actually the correct thing to do or not or whether it can actually be done better for a good reason

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you cannot read it in a book or forum and you certainly can't get it from a picture. I've never yet seen a curryhouse chef using an infra-red temperature probe....they do it by sight and smell, right?

The simple truth is that most of us (apart from you and one or two others it seems) cant fully produce decent bir curries with the taste and smell at home and they dont know why.  And surely we may never know why if we dont understand the basic limititions of a domestic kitchen and particularly if we insist on closing our eyes and minds to questions such as these domi

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It's the same with a cake....different people get different temperatures, so one cooker may bake it quicker than another

Yes i agree domi.  But try cooking your cake at 100C and see how far you get?  And please dont tell me that its a matter of "personal preference" again domi  : 

Surely the basics have to be right?

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 05:50 PM
Rai

Certainly over 100C
Ideally 180C
Definitely not over 200C

Well, at least weve got some suggestions now thanks.  But why do you say this please whats your rationale?

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 05:41 PM
"Get youself a bigger hob" is the answer you're looking for perhaps 

No thats not the answer im looking for.  I REALLY want to know the approximate temperatures that the spices have to get to (when cooking a bir curry) to maximise their release of flavours. 

If its 100C or below I (and most of us) dont need bigger hobs.

If its much more than 100C, we might do.  And we need to add the spices first (probably not as a paste)

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 05:34 PM
The simple answer Rai, is you can't (onions or spices).

Exactly sns, hence my question 

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 05:24 PM
Please tell me how you manage to fry onion in oil at 85C.

Excellent question sns!  ;D

And please tell me how you are also supposed to fry spices at 85C too! 

Yes its accurate.

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 05:10 PM
Then why....are you arguing that more heat is the answer?

It seems that youre not comprehending what i am trying to say domi?  Im not saying that more heat is the answer (but it may be?).  Where have I said that?  Try reading my question again.  

Im simply asking at what temperatures spices need to ne heated to for them to best release their flavours (when cooking bir curries obviously).  You havent answered that question.  No one has yet  :

Quotehowever I get the same smell from a curry as I do when I open a takeaway delivered to the house, which is the most important thing.

My goodness, Im really surprised domi, I really am.  Most of us have been trying for years and years to emulate that and still havent got there.  

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 05:02 PM
Despite having onion, garlic, ginger and tomato paste in the pan, if most of the liquid (from the onion) has evaporated ...

and you're now actually frying the contents
and you havn't overloaded the pan
and your pan is wide enough
and you've got a reasonable size burner

.. then, an oil temperature of 180C should be easily attainable

As I said, you havent measured it.  Go and do that and come back and tell me what you found from a position of fact (and REAL experience) and not supposition sns  ;

Quote from: smokenspices on March 23, 2008, 04:29 PM
Just enough to remove the raw flavour without burning (60 seconds or less?)

Is that an answer to that question?

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It saves using an infra red temperature probe, which many of us don't have

So you are just using them to determine the temperature of the oil are you? then ditching them?

QuoteThe oil should be at about 180C

Why should it be at 180C?  Whats the reason?  Why use oils with a smoke point well up into about 240C+ then?

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Too much water in the spice paste or the oil/pan wasn't hot enough before adding the spice paste, perhaps?

The presence of water and a too feeble hob perhaps more like?  That's precisely my point

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A domestic hob (medium gas burner ring) is about 1.8kW and should be ample to heat and maintain oil at 180C when a little spice paste is added. A large gas ring is about 3kW

Then clearly you have not measured it.  Most people add onions, garlic, ginger and then the powdered spices/spice paste and tomato puree.  By which time the pan will be about 85C (ive measured it).  Question is, is this hot enough?

Seems to me that some people think that anything will do because its "personal preferance" but, from what I can tell, no one here can actually fully replicate the taste and smell of a bir curry.  Is it any wonder i ask myself?  :

Quote from: Domi on March 23, 2008, 04:10 PM
Some people may prefer a more raw flavour from their spices, others prefer a more well-rounded, roasted taste and never the twain shall meet...do you see my point? The only way to get the best from your spices is to suit your own palate....pigs and gormands seldom agree, but each is entitled to their opinion, neither side being right or wrong, whatever the majority

Noooooooo domi!  This question is about the minimum temperatures required to release the flavours of spices!  Its not about bl**dy "personal preference"