Topic: BIR, BCR : the good, the bad and the ugly

[Peripatetic Phil]

Thinking, as I made my second coffee of the day, about our obsession with re-creating not only BIR cuisine but more particularly with early BIR cuisine (60's, 70's, ...), I suddenly realised that there is no corresponding obsession (of which I am aware) with re-creating the 60's & 70's BCR experience ("British Chinese Restaurant").  And the reasons for that are, superficially at least, blindingly obvious : 60's/70's BIR cuisine was superb (even if you did have to pay extra for off-the-bone and breast), whilst 60's/70's BCR food (I refuse to use the word "cuisine" in this context) was, not to put too fine a point on it, absolutely disgusting.  Who can forget, without a shudder of distaste, "chicken chop suey", for example ?   But looking below the surface, why was this the case ?  Both the Chinese and the Indian chefs have a tradition for first-class food that goes back centuries : why is it that our early immigrant Chinese cooks served up such rubbish to their non-discerning British guests whilst their Indian counterparts created a cuisine that was, and remains, absolutely superb ?  The (Chinese) skills existed in Britain at the time : one had only to go to (for example), "Happy Gathering" in the centre of Birmingham, or to Lee Ho Fook in London's Chinatown, to experience first-class real Chinese cuisine (and to sit amongst happy customers, 90% of whom were themselves of Chinese ethnicity).  Yet the vast majority of our BCRs served complete and utter cr@p, and (for a few years, at least) we ate it knowing no better.  All I can say is, "Thank God for the more authentic Chinese restaurants that now form the majority of our BCR base".  I am sure you can still find Chicken Chop Suey if you look hard, but in the main our Chinese restaurants are now targetted at a far more discerning population and have adjusted their standards to match.  The Chinese cuisine that you get in this country is still totally unlike that which you get in Shanghai (for example), but as someone who has tried both, I am extremely grateful for that !

** Phil.

[colin grigson]

Please , Phil wash your mouth out    , I used to love Chicken Chop Suey , Egg Fried rice all smothered in a sachet of their awful Soy sauce  ... It brought a little of Peking to a quiet Bournemouth suburb ( so I thought ! ) , those were the days ...

 

[vinders]

An interesting and intriguing post. Now, while I tend to find most of your ideas/arguments highly compelling, I feel a nuanced counter-argument is needed in this case. Not just because I am half Chinese, I might add, but because I do have some very fond memories of certain Chinese Takeaway dishes. I?m too young for the 1960s, but do remember superb pancake rolls and on the bone chicken Chinese curries from the 1970s. Of course, there was, and still some awful fare served up. However, both myself and my sister often complain that the Chinese curries simply don?t taste as good as they used to ? that is apart from a Chinese T-A I found in Woolston that prides itself on a curry recipe that?s been in use for the last two or three decades. To be fair, Phil, you do stress the ?majority? served rubbish ? but I would argue that nuance is required ? either than or I have a mythical memory of both Chinese and Indian T-A food from the 1970s/80s.
PS I recently found a Chinese T-A that has delicious pancake rolls - I'm convinced they are made and then deep fried in batter - suicidal but oh so good

[Peripatetic Phil]

OK, perhaps by the 70's they were starting to improve, but really I do feel that for a couple of decades at least they lagged well behind the average BIR, unless one was lucky enough to live near a real Chinatown.  As to Chinese curries, I can offer no opinion : I tried one once, found it far too much like an English curry of the 50's, and have never eaten one since.  But although I do not share your ethnic origins, all my family on my wife's side are Chinese or Chinese/Vietnamese, and I do get the frequent opportunity to eat real Chinese cuisine (or as real as it gets in Britain), so I have a good benchmark against which to judge the memories of the BCRs of my youth.

** Phil (off to Shanghai again in October, for the wedding of the son of one of his Chinese teachers).

[vinders]

ah you're in for a treat - I had some tremendous meals at wedding banquets in Liverpool Chinatown during the 1980s, 12 courses of superb cuisine - one of my favourites was the twice-cooked pork. Talking of which, I'm having a stab at that tonight.

I take your point about the overall quality of food. In fact my (Chinese) Nan used to refuse to eat standard Chinese T-A food.

[Peripatetic Phil]

ah you're in for a treat - I had some tremendous meals at wedding banquets in Liverpool Chinatown during the 1980s, 12 courses of superb cuisine

I sincerely hope you're right, Vinders, but I do have this nagging doubt ever since R. (the 'groom-to-be) grilled me at some length on Skype as to my attitude to eating dog.  I /think/ I succeeded in convincing him that there are some animals (such as dogs) that have such trust in humans that it is absolutely unthinkable to betray that trust, and to butcher and eat them (even if that is the sole reason for which they were bred and/or fed) but I still have this nagging fear that he was planning to serve dog at the wedding feast before we spoke.  I'm reasonably certain he won't now, but I am still worried that he might previously have been planning to ...  I have (sadly) come to accept that suckling pig is the norm at Chinese wedding banquets, but that does nothing to dispel the feeling of guilt when I eat it.

** Phil.

[Malc.]

I was also too young fro the 70's but the early 80's I do remember with fond memories of Chinese food. Infact, you could call it an obsession albeit my best mates obsession of all things Chinese. I just got caught up in it, so we would often nip down the local TA's for spring rolls or the odd beef chow mein etc. We also used to frequent a restaurant in Brighton called Cheung's which served by far the best Chinese food I have ever tasted. Certainly more authentic than I have had elsewhere and often also frequented by Brighton's Chinese community, which i've always used as a judge of good Chinese food. It was also the restaurant that introduced me to crispy rice, which if you haven't tried, you really ought to hunt it down. They also did a fantastic Char Sui which was much darker and less sweet than the modern style.


But whilst you would say that modern Chinese TA's offer a much better menu, adapted for a more discerning customer, i'd have to disagree. I find most modern TA's offering substandard dishes which all seem to taste similar. Spring Rolls have always been among my favourites, but I simply can't find anything that tastes anywhere near as good as the ones we bought back in the 80's, which were a meal by themselves almost.

[Peripatetic Phil]

But whilst you would say that modern Chinese TA's offer a much better menu, adapted for a more discerning customer, i'd have to disagree. I find most modern TA's offering substandard dishes which all seem to taste similar. Spring Rolls have always been among my favourites, but I simply can't find anything that tastes anywhere near as good as the ones we bought back in the 80's, which were a meal by themselves almost.

OK, I was not including T/As in my analysis; I'm not really in a position to judge them, because I use them so rarely now, far preferring to cook for myself or eat out.  Certainly the one in the nearest village (two miles away) is appalling : I tried it once, and never again. The one in Coxheath is considerably better.  But really my comments were aimed solely at BCRs, and not at BCR take-aways; the latter are a very different kettle of fish indeed.

** Phil.

P.S. If ever I manage to get down to Lewes to try your local BIR, you must return the favour by coming to London with me and trying the family restaurant in Islington : I think their spring rolls will pass muster, and the chicken wings are to die for

[Malc.]

my comments were aimed solely at BCRs, and not at BCR take-aways; the latter are a very different kettle of fish indeed.

** Phil.

P.S. If ever I manage to get down to Lewes to try your local BIR, you must return the favour by coming to London with me and trying the family restaurant in Islington : I think their spring rolls will pass muster, and the chicken wings are to die for

My apologies Phil, I thought it was a general opinion of all Chinese outlets. I haven't visited a Chinese restaurant to dine in, for many years. I tend to cook at home on the rare occasion that the wife is prepared to eat Chinese. She really doesn't like this style of food usually. 

When you do come down, we are going to the IG which is in Burgess Hill not Lewes. I have already told the owner of your pending visit and hope to be able to book not only the table but a Madras masterclass in the kitchen for you. Fingers crossed.   

A trip to Islington sounds good, as does the food.

[Peripatetic Phil]

When you do come down, we are going to the IG which is in Burgess Hill not Lewes. I have already told the owner of your pending visit and hope to be able to book not only the table but a Madras masterclass in the kitchen for you. Fingers crossed.   

Wow, that would be an honour indeed.  Unlike many of our more experienced members, I have never been in (or even near) a BIR kitchen, so a masterclass in one would be absolutely wonderful ...

A trip to Islington sounds good, as does the food.

Excellent, we must liaise off-line and get this thing under weigh !