Topic: What do we know about oil in BIR's

[Razor]

Hi Jerry,

I really don't want to dampen your enthusiasm mate because I love reading about your experimental adventures but why are you dedicating so much time to this particular ingredient?

I've come to the conclusion that seasoned or flavoured oil really only comes into it's own when used as a dressing or used to fry something very absorbant such bread or even tofu?

I really don't think that it has a place in BIR as an individual ingredient but is more a byproduct of another process.  I know Julian from c2g uses seasoned oil for his base gravy (Bhaji oil) and I know Haldi believes it to be important because he has seen it first hand but I have never seen anywhere using seasoned oil to start off a dish and we have many open kitchen TA's around these parts.

I often, as I have stated many many times, use seasoned oil from my last dish whereby I have cooked the curry in way too much oil, with the sole intention of spooning off the excess to use on my next curry but to be honest, there is only a slight improvement on using fresh.

The best use of this oil I have found, is to use it as a drizzle over bhajis, seekhs or samosas served on a bed of salad.

Sorry to sound so negative Jerry, especially as it is some of your research, experiments and observations, that really inspire and motivate me but I fear that this could be the one nut that will prove to be the hardest one to crack for you.

All the very best,

Ray

[h4ppy-chris]

"fascinating. can i just be sure on what he said. he makes seasoned oil and removes the spices presumably whole by "spooning them off". the seasoned oil was then a late addition at dish frying."

he cooks the spices in the oil then spoons the oil off. the seasoned oil was added at the very end just drizzled on the top then poured in to the foil tray. the seasoned oil on its own was not a good taste.

he used vegetable ghee at the start of all the curry's.

[PaulP]

One thing I discovered last night: I was cooking my usual korai style curry as I lke some peppers and onions and a few bits of tomato in my curries, usually. I took my normal approach of slowly "sweating" the chopped onions and green peppers in some oil for about 20 minutes.
Then I carefully drained the oil from this pan and used it to start the curry cooking proper. The cooked peppers and onions get added back to the curry later.

As usual I wasn't 100% happy with my curry. It was so BIR in some ways but it had another flavour I couldn't quite identify. Now I believe that the act of sweating the onions and particularly the green peppers imparted a very green peppery flavour into the oil I then used to finish the curry. The flavour is quite strong and just isn't BIR. My wife enjoyed the curry very much but next time I'll discard the oil I use to cook the peppers and onions. So I think I've been accidently producing a spiced oil (or pepper/onion oil) that just doesn't complement the curry as a whole.

Hopefully this will be some progress for me.

Cheers,

Paul

[JerryM]

Razor,

i'm trying to close my gap and "seasoned" oil seemed a possible contender.

i'd be well pleased if any other ideas/possibilities are generated as i can't really put my finger on what the gap is - it's quite small. i do know what it isn't - base, equipment, technique, mix powder, prep items, pastes.

for a good while i've put it down to recipe refinement - some recipes i get 100% spot others not quite best BIR. the spot on dishes tend to be the "cream" dishes.

have racked the grey cells - i can only think of a few remaining possibilities: herbs in base, the oil, citric acid or recipe.

the idea of the oil gap comes from the sample of BIR base that i was given. at the time i did not think there was much oil in the sample but when i froze it into ice cubes the taste on the surface was of oil and differed significantly from the base itself and the oil that i've ever been able to reclaim. the difference purely being strength and zing.

the exercise on the chef garam will either help or not. even if it turns out to be no good then i'd still be happy as it's closed down another door or possibility on where the gap lies.

the exercise is well worth doing on a learning basis - i feel i now have a much better understanding of the spice flavours and feel this can only be good going forward.

i really do agree on the hardness of the nut to crack. i still believe we have 1 piece of the jigsaw missing. it's not a big part but i feel important enough to adopt trial and error albeit much in hope as you say.

h4ppy-chris,

thanks for clarification. i'm well pleased you mentioned that the taste was not good on it's own. i've tried making a batch and came up with the same conclusion. it's certainly not what i'm searching for. i will try it out in a test curry to be sure though.

the frying in veg ghee is something i've tried and does not work for me (worse than plain oil). i do add v.ghee to the base so the reclaimed oil does have a proportion in it. i can only think that i'm frying too hot for ghee on it's own (or more accurately the pan surfaces).

recipe for info:
oil 50 ml
tom puree 2.5ml
test chef garam 2.5ml
garlic puree 2.5ml
ginger puree 5ml

nb i made initially without the ginger and found the ginger made a significant difference (improvement) to the taste


et al,

will do full update on progress asap

[JerryM]

PaulP,

i prep sliced onion and pepper by small batch frying separately in wok - might be worth a try.

for onion: heat wok on hottest hob (eg 3kw) add 1 tbsp reclaimed oil, swirl around wok, when starts to smoke chuck in 2 medium onion sliced, stir fry till onion breaks up (~5 mins). no need to add more oil if doing a 2nd batch. for slice pepper do pretty much same except only a very short fry till start soften (hardly any at all ~1 min). don't add any more oil if already added to the wok for the onions. an option i've grown to like from dipuraja and use now and then is to add between 1 tsp and 1 tbsp of methi leaf to the onion at start of stir fry. optional to add pinch salt to the onions.

[JerryM]

the dryness taste was in the panch puran and have consequently left it out. of the panch puran ingredients (fennel, mustard, cumin fenugreek, onion) i think it's the mustard seed but not sure. intend to buy some individual onion seed to perhaps add in at later stage.

the fenugreek seed (methi) was very interesting. again intend to buy some individual. i liked the smell from it and feel it's a characteristic that should go into base even though i've never used the seed or leaf in base before. it may even be the leaf to go into base. any thoughts appreciated.

the made rev1 test chef masala:

black cumin 15%
asian bay 15%
jalpur 5% (see note)
green cardamom 15%
star anis 10%
cinnamom 5%
aniseed 10%
black cardamom 10%
fennel 2.5%
casia 2.5%

i equated the % to ml which produced 85 ml of finished roasted powder. the jalpur was reduced at the point of adding to the remaining ground roasted whole spice. the initial proportion was intended to be 15%. the roasted spice produced just over 6 tbsp (85ml) and gut feeling was that the jalpur was too strong to add as 15ml so was reduced to 5ml. this seemed to work. if anyone intends to make and has no jalpur then leave out until the rest are proven.

pic attached shows the roasted rev1 chef masala with tgad/zaal combined at top left and the jalpur top right.
the rev1 chef masala tastes very different to the others. i like it and fits exactly what i was imagining.

i've used it to knock up a 400g onion batch of base (based on CA's CR0 development base). unfortunately the amount of oil added and consequently reclaimed got messed up ending up with only 50ml. the pic shows it on the right and the attempt at BE tarka oil on the left. the reclaimed oil tastes very good and well pleased. the strength is not yet there and am now sure it needs to be recycled through a few bases which i intend to do.

i've increased the chef masala from 5ml per 800g onion to 10ml. i'm also intending to use 20ml as i intend to x2 the oil, half being to freeze and recycle into the next base.

the whole spice was roasted at 100C for 8 hrs c/w 60C in the past.

aiming to cook with it today.

[JerryM]

cooked with the basic onion base last night: 1 off jaipuri rec oil, 1 off jaipuri BE inspired Tarka manufactured oil, 1 off butter chicken plain oil.

the tarka oil dish was not good (as per the oil taste). it's not something i intend following up but for those interested the only glimmer was a tad taste of cardboard which was raised in George's original post which got me onto this particular topic.

the rec oil dish was good enough (the basic base, no bunjarra) to green light making a full batch of base to properly try the new chef garam out.

in short i am sorted on this. only time will tell if i can get the right strength by recycling 50% of the oil forwards into the next base.

one final comment - i don't have a clue how close this chef garam is to real BIR. i only know the end point and what i've made previously. just tasting the oil it sits pretty close to what i imagine it to be. time will tell.

ps for ifindforu. i made a huge plateful of your tikka for the football. without any prompts all commented on how good it was. a big smile would not be out of order.

[JerryM]

i've got a full batch of base on the go (800g onion). i've used 1L of oil and reclaimed 450ml for cooking and 400ml which i've frozen for the next base.

the immediate concern that it would darken the oil (like in the rajver) has not happened - thankfully.

although the oil does taste decent it's just not strong enough. i used 20ml of the chef garam which with hindsight is clearly not enough.

going forward on the next base intend to x2 ie 40ml.

gut feeling is that the "better" chef spice has had knock on to the taste of the base. will know better tomorrow but feel it's improved the taste.

[StoneCut]

I like the way you have a go at this, very thorough and "scientific", so to say. Reminds of the way I work in certain areas (just not food yet).

[JerryM]

StoneCut,

i think this site has made me worse - through realising how good a curry you can produce at home but at the same time seeing conflicting information.

also the more i've got into it the more the "why" seems to have become important which pushes you more towards a scientific approach.

update.

must point out this oil business really is fine tuning. it's perhaps 0.5% at most.

i do feel the balance of the base is better - no harshness. the small amount of oil that surfaced during stage 2 cooking (after blending) still tasted understrength. am pretty sure the amount of chef garam needs to go up on next base to say 40ml per 800g onion. of course 40% of the starting oil will be already spiced but would rather get the taste stronger than weaker.

of note i've now tasted the frozen oil - wet finger on the top. it surprisingly taste pretty good and clearly going in the right direction.

aiming to cook tomorrow.