Topic: Base from Zaal Restaurant in Fleet

[ELW]

I could blunt my senses in a kitchen all day long, but a side by side comparison will always show a difference between bir@home & bir in itself. Doing a spot the difference between homestyle & bir & I see heat/base gravy/ & initial cooking technique. After that it cooks away like anything else, the bir bit is done! I would like to know this however.
Do Asian cooks/families, use this initial hot cooking technique at home? & if not why not?

Can anyone reproduce the slightly burned taste by longer cooking on lower heat? It would be very reassuring for anyone just setting out, as it's oddly never really been emphasised, either in print or otherwise.

The 'taste' I know now is hot fused spices, the 'aroma' of hot fused spices & tomato paste will be one you are familiar with, if your local actually uses tomato paste across most of its dishes. My local does a basic curry, there is no hint of tomato in it at all, but that burned taste is there. KD, on the face of it was roasting individual spices in gravy rather than tomato, why shouldnt that work, if you got the pan hot enough? She never mentioned anything about heat or any importance of initial cooking either. 

The Kushi recipe's again don't mention heat as being significant, again according to their book, don't use tomato paste
I said it plenty on here recently, that only by introducing heat & ignoring the voice in my head saying "don't burn the spices", have I produced results. Edit-ignore everything I know & am used to doing while cooking food in a frying pan(never had a frying pan on full blast in my life till now) It's still very hit & miss, but the ingredients & recipe's are as they always were, the only new variable is the inital cooking method. I reckon I could take for example CA's stuff onto a big burner & produce great bir dishes, knowing what I know now. At home on my gas cooker is a little trickier, but I have managed it...you'll just need to trust me on that

Zaal base tastes great on it's own, tried the no tomato approach last night, didn't hit the mark, not sure why yet. Hope to have something a bit more concrete regarding a slower/lower initial cooking method thisn week. It would be great to either count it in or rule it out once and for all

Regards
ELW

[George]

KD, on the face of it was roasting individual spices in gravy rather than tomato, why shouldnt that work, if you got the pan hot enough? She never mentioned about about heat or any importance of initial cooking either.

I'm not persuaded that high heat under tomato (especially tomato mixed with water) and spices or base sauce and spices is anything other than a rapid boil. How can it be called roasting or singeing with so much water present? The video I was most interested in from the Fleet lessons was the Roshney Chicken. Unless I'm mistaken, the spices went in with diluted tomato, quickly followed by base sauce. They didn't get a chance to burn, the way I saw it.  Books based on centuries of cooking experience in India all say to avoid burning spices.

[Salvador Dhali]

KD, on the face of it was roasting individual spices in gravy rather than tomato, why shouldnt that work, if you got the pan hot enough? She never mentioned about about heat or any importance of initial cooking either.

I'm not persuaded that high heat under tomato (especially tomato mixed with water) and spices or base sauce and spices is anything other than a rapid boil. How can it be called roasting or singeing with so much water present? The video I was most interested in from the Fleet lessons was the Roshney Chicken. Unless I'm mistaken, the spices went in with diluted tomato, quickly followed by base sauce. They didn't get a chance to burn, the way I saw it.  Books based on centuries of cooking experience in India all say to avoid burning spices.

I agree it's deceptive when watching the videos, George, as we viewers simply can't detect the level of heat being chucked out from those burners, but if my 8.8kw burner is anything to go by, any water present is almost instantly evaporated when it hits the (very hot) pan. From there it's down to the chef to control the fusing process to avoid burning the spices, which we see being done via regular quenchings with gravy.

I've often heard the singeing process referred to as 'caramelising' the spices (in fact I first came across the description in Pat Chapman's 'Favourite Restaurant Curries' back in 1988).

It sounds better than 'burning', anyway...  ;D

[ELW]

How can it be called roasting or singeing with so much water present?

roasting should have maybe have had quotation marks  , read it somwhere & Julian C2G, said the method of caramelising the gravy in the pan  is 'known as roasting' rather than simply using the term himself.

Anyhow, I'm not 100% convinced yet the tomato paste is a crucial part of this process. When it's added to those hot pans in the videos, it seems to be in a fairly haphazard sort of way and mixed around with the spices. The gravy is added more directly to cool the whole thing down. As mentioned, one of my locals basic curry has no hint of tomato, no hint of red in the colour, as a bhuna may........and yet still has the underlying taste. Of note, the

Ashoka recipe's on here, call for oil/GG/tomato paste/garam masala in the initial stage. If I remember correctly, East End brand was used . Now that is flying in the face of things

Somehing important in the Ashoka stuff I never picked up on until recently, was that the original poster saw this process in action, and got it immediately. Same thing with the Zaal kitchen lessons.


@SD, burning, singeing, they don't sound great at all  ;D, and agreed even on my cooker, the tomato paste loses it's water very quickly (1/4 ratio) The best results I have had so far were to fry the mix powder for while on full heat before adding the tomato. I think a slightly smaller pan than the 26cm we've have, would make this whole melarky a bit easier, although 9 quid for that piece ali was a snip 

ELW

[ELW]

It certainly works well and tastes great, but there are many others on here that are equally as good, just like the one in your freezer.  The base is only part of the jigsaw IMHO.  As long as it's half decent, right consistency, right taste (don't ask me to define that one  ) it's then down to what you do with it.  That's what really counts ;D.  Obviously, variations in ingredients will affect the final result, sometimes considerably, sometimes with little impact.  IMO, no matter good the base, it won't provide you with a BIR curry with that smell and taste if the final dish isn't cooked right.  You'll end up with just another home made curry.

Thats for sure Curryhell, the bir bit is over & done with very quickly, the rest as a dish will come down to palate really. I singed the spices at the bagar stage also doing the Zaal base, but noticed no difference in the base, probably due to the large amount of liquid. I don't know if the oil content of the base gravies has been dealt with, but I used 75ml (5Tblsp)as called for  in the Kushi base, with no adverse side effects!
Someone mentioned recently about passing on the bir info they have aquired. Being able to control the salt/fat/sugar levels as far as possible in great bir@home would be a good way go imho

[Salvador Dhali]

@SD, burning, singeing, they don't sound great at all  ;D, and agreed even on my cooker, the tomato paste loses it's water very quickly (1/4 ratio) The best results I have had so far were to fry the mix powder for while on full heat before adding the tomato. I think a slightly smaller pan than the 26cm we've have, would make this whole melarky a bit easier, although 9 quid for that piece ali was a snip 

ELW

I too am an advocate of frying spices before adding the tomato paste (also a 1:4 dilute), though for some dishes, such as Madras, it's become a habit over the years to bung the paste in first and give it a thorough seeing to. (It may, or may not, contribute a little to that classic Madras 'tang'?)

Although not 'BIR', interestingly, according to various sources more informed than I, in Bangladesh the style of cooking is to fry the spices hard on an initial high heat for 15-30 seconds, after which the heat is turned down and the spices cooked until the oil separates. Then the garlic/ginger/onions (if being used) are added and slowly cooked to reduce out the water and convert the starch to sugar over 15 mins or so.

As one author notes, once the rawness has been cooked out of the spices it can't be put back in, so liquid can be added at any time after this point to stop them burning.

As it's the way it's apparently been done for centuries, I'm not going to argue!

As for pans, I have smaller sizes but I cook a lot of doubles and absolutely love that Ipac Grandi Cuochi 26cm. In fact it's changed my life.

And I note it's now almost 15 quid on Amazon (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0052WSA08/ref=oh_o02_s00_i00_details), and will be unlikely to drop down to 9 quid anytime soon, so thanks to you and Martinvic for the tip-off...   

[martinvic]

Wow those pans have gone up in price haven't they.

I forgot to mention at the time I also got one of these for a bargain ?4.47 (plus one of thear lids to fit for about ?2.50.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Ipac-Grandi-Cuochi-Aluminium-Casserole/dp/B0052WSAIA/ref=sr_1_4?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1330953777&sr=1-4

Martin

[ifindforu]

This is the base gravy Az(chef/owner) kindly showed us on our recent lesson.I've re-checked all of my notes and I'm pretty confident they are accurate but there was a lot of information being given,if anyone spots any glaring errors please feel free to point them out.We tried to ensure we got the correct measurements in everything we prepared,Az is not used to a desert spoon of this or that and usually relies on his experience in judging things by eye.

The gravy is essentially the same as Az uses in his restaurant.Same ingredients and technique albeit on a smaller scale(I spotted one of his pans and it was huge).He pointed out the outcome is the same no matter how big the pot is.After two days the gravy should be discarded.Interestingly he said it's better fresh than leaving it to stand overnight.

First you need a pot roughly about eight litres in capacity.Fill it just over three quarters full of English/Dutch onions which have been chopped.Az said he would not use milder Spanish onions.Also he would not leave the onions whole in the pot.Chopped onions cook more quickly if he's busy and it makes no difference to their sweetness when cooking.Then add one chopped carrot,one chopped green pepper and one sliced potato.Add one desert spoon of salt and also one desert spoon of ginger/garlic paste.Az actually blends this with more ginger than garlic in a 60/40 ratio.Then add about two litres of water and two chef spoons of vegetable oil.Put the lid on and bring to the boil.Boil it for at least an hour,making sure the bottom doesn't catch.If it does add a little more water.Az explained it's not an exact time as to when it's ready.Like most things he does it by eye and when the onions begin to 'melt'.When it is ready take it off the heat and blend.

(continued...)

My video of the first part of this recipe is here:

Indian Restaurant Base Sauce Lesson

No video of the final stages sorry.

why no video of the final stage

[natterjak]

This is the base gravy Az(chef/owner) kindly showed us on our recent lesson.I've re-checked all of my notes and I'm pretty confident they are accurate but there was a lot of information being given,if anyone spots any glaring errors please feel free to point them out.We tried to ensure we got the correct measurements in everything we prepared,Az is not used to a desert spoon of this or that and usually relies on his experience in judging things by eye.

The gravy is essentially the same as Az uses in his restaurant.Same ingredients and technique albeit on a smaller scale(I spotted one of his pans and it was huge).He pointed out the outcome is the same no matter how big the pot is.After two days the gravy should be discarded.Interestingly he said it's better fresh than leaving it to stand overnight.

First you need a pot roughly about eight litres in capacity.Fill it just over three quarters full of English/Dutch onions which have been chopped.Az said he would not use milder Spanish onions.Also he would not leave the onions whole in the pot.Chopped onions cook more quickly if he's busy and it makes no difference to their sweetness when cooking.Then add one chopped carrot,one chopped green pepper and one sliced potato.Add one desert spoon of salt and also one desert spoon of ginger/garlic paste.Az actually blends this with more ginger than garlic in a 60/40 ratio.Then add about two litres of water and two chef spoons of vegetable oil.Put the lid on and bring to the boil.Boil it for at least an hour,making sure the bottom doesn't catch.If it does add a little more water.Az explained it's not an exact time as to when it's ready.Like most things he does it by eye and when the onions begin to 'melt'.When it is ready take it off the heat and blend.

(continued...)

My video of the first part of this recipe is here:

Indian Restaurant Base Sauce Lesson

No video of the final stages sorry.

why no video of the final stage

Because I was videoing using my phone and the memory filled up.

[ifindforu]

This is the base gravy Az(chef/owner) kindly showed us on our recent lesson.I've re-checked all of my notes and I'm pretty confident they are accurate but there was a lot of information being given,if anyone spots any glaring errors please feel free to point them out.We tried to ensure we got the correct measurements in everything we prepared,Az is not used to a desert spoon of this or that and usually relies on his experience in judging things by eye.

The gravy is essentially the same as Az uses in his restaurant.Same ingredients and technique albeit on a smaller scale(I spotted one of his pans and it was huge).He pointed out the outcome is the same no matter how big the pot is.After two days the gravy should be discarded.Interestingly he said it's better fresh than leaving it to stand overnight.

First you need a pot roughly about eight litres in capacity.Fill it just over three quarters full of English/Dutch onions which have been chopped.Az said he would not use milder Spanish onions.Also he would not leave the onions whole in the pot.Chopped onions cook more quickly if he's busy and it makes no difference to their sweetness when cooking.Then add one chopped carrot,one chopped green pepper and one sliced potato.Add one desert spoon of salt and also one desert spoon of ginger/garlic paste.Az actually blends this with more ginger than garlic in a 60/40 ratio.Then add about two litres of water and two chef spoons of vegetable oil.Put the lid on and bring to the boil.Boil it for at least an hour,making sure the bottom doesn't catch.If it does add a little more water.Az explained it's not an exact time as to when it's ready.Like most things he does it by eye and when the onions begin to 'melt'.When it is ready take it off the heat and blend.

(continued...)

My video of the first part of this recipe is here:

Indian Restaurant Base Sauce Lesson

No video of the final stages sorry.

why no video of the final stage

Because I was videoing using my phone and the memory filled up.

lol