Topic: Chef's Spoon

[Razor]

It is a logical approach to things, where else would you start?

It's not a logical approach to things at all, it's learning by 'mimicry' and not by 'understanding'.

Rubbish, learning by mimicry is how we start to learn, the understanding comes later, after many attempts and one or two failures.  I agree that just copying an approach is going to give varied results at the start, but you learn to get consistency by practice but you have to begin somewhere.

You see a BIR Chef put a 1/4 chef spoon of white powder into his base gravy - what are you going to put into yours by copying him? How do you know what flavour or effect he's trying to achieve if you don't know what it is? It could be a ground spice like garlic or fenugreek powder which will alter the flavour of the dish. It could be a seasoning such as salt, it could be a flavour enhancer such as MSG, it could even be a thickening agent such as cornflour or even plain white flour. How do you know?

How does copying him without the understanding of what he's putting in his dish help you to replicate the same effect or flavour he's getting or trying to achieve? Or are you so good, that you know by instinct and experience what it is?

But who in the right mind would do that?  When Julian from curry2go put in the white powder, many members queried as to what it was, I don't think anyone just went ahead and added what they assumed the white powder was.  It could have been Cilit Bang for all we know?  Knowing what an ingredient is, however, is a completely different thing to understanding what the ingredient should taste like or what we would expect the ingredient to taste like, and is why members asked Julian what it was before there proceeded to 'replicate' (copy) is base gravy.

First of all, I said 'it seems to be'. That's not a definitive statement either way, but it is the over-riding impression I get based on reading through many of the threads here. Clearly there's people here who cook by understanding, knowledge and experience but the majority merely seem to copy them, without really understanding what it is that they're doing.

Sorry Spicey but that is your opinion, of which your are entitled to but I think that it is rather insulting to even suggest such a thing.  There are many members on here who like to share their experimental projects, such as Curryhell, Chriswg and JerryM, and I have done the same but there are also many members that prefer to keep their own council and quietly do things their way.  Why they keep it to themselves is anybody's guess but it's their choice.

One of the reasons I hold that view is because of the sheer number of people here who think it's perfectly acceptable practice to take a base gravy from one person and combine it with a 'spice mix' from someone else. Why? What logic is there in introducing so many uncontrollable variables? Does it not occur to people that base gravy's are designed to work with the spice mix's that go with them

What a bizarre statement to make, especially coming from someone that regards the 'monkey see monkey do approach' as sheer mimicry.  So, if I recommend to a member to use my spicemix, with Chewy's base then I must be showing a lack of understanding or logic?  To me, it shows how integrable some combinations can be.  Chewy's base is a much superior base to mine, whereas I think that my own spice mix works better with it than Chewys.  I think/know this because I've put it to the test however, I've never openly mentioned this on the forum as it doesn't really need to be aired, members can make up their own minds/opinions through experimenting, just as I did/do.

I boil my onions whole in a base, Why? because I saw Chewytikka do it, monkey sees, monkey does? no, not at all.

You do it, because you know with 100% certainty, logically and by deductive reasoning that most if not all BIR Curry base gravy's use boiled onions, garlic and ginger as their predominant ingredients. You don't have to see someone else using these ingredients to know why to use them. After all, you wouldn't try and make a base gravy out of water, flour, yeast, sugar and salt any more than you'd try to make a loaf of bread out of boiled onions, garlic and ginger.

No Spicey, you've completely missed the point.  I boil my onions whole in a base rather than chop them up.  Why?, because (and there is science to back this up, although I didn't know the science at the time) it brings out the natural sweetness of the onions that I am familiar with in BIR food. There are many members on cr0 that have done the same since Chewy published his 3 hr base and the majority agree, the base is much sweeter than a base done with chopped onions.  Now that isn't me, imposing my beliefs or theories on others, their conclusions were based on their own (silent) experiments.  Now forum member Cory Ander, who I admire and respect immensely, doesn't subscribe to this theory which is fine but he has never insulted or looked down upon them that do, and is why I find some of your responses in certain threads, so damn right rude and offensive..!

Don't get me wrong, I respect the fact that you want to get to the truth, as you see it, and that you may find members accounts of things contradictory or illogical in your opinion, but the way that you simply dismiss members methods, ideas, theories, without offering any of you own as comparisons, is insulting to say the least..! Perfect example below;

Curryhell's recent 'supposed' comparison of ifindforu's spice mix (designed to work with his own base gravy) and Ashoka's Spice Mix (designed to work with Ashoka's base gravy) is a good example of this which produced fairly inconclusive results. Yeah I wonder why? What logic (or usefulness) is there in using one base gravy to test two different spice mix's when the predominant flavour of the dish is produced by the base gravy and the spice mix is used to fine tune the final dish?

Curryhell, by his own addmission has a bit more experimenting to do with this and has never proffessed the results to be comprehensive in any way.  What he did do, was to get close friends around to help him out with the experiment, none of which, I assume, actually make their own curries but do know what they like and don't like.  Judging by the comments of his testers, he produced two very nice curries, equalling if not bettering them of his local TA!  To me, this is just step 1, on his testing of these combinations and I for one, can't wait to read his next set of results.  However, you seem to think that the results were, "hopeless - like so many results here"

I joined in the hope I'd finally be able to solve a 20 odd year mystery 'smoky/sweet' flavour that's always been missing from my curry's. I've got closer to achieving that, but I'm still not there yet. The forum is useful, but it's a shame it's so cliquey and there's as much misinformation and fluff as there is useful information.

The misinformation that you refer to, is a product of 6 or 7 years, work in progress.  Many of the ideas and theories from say 2005/6/7 have been superseeded by more reliable information, clearer accounts from actual BIR's/TA's and members practicing and striving to achieve their personal goal.  You may not always see the logic in these accounts but that doesn't mean that the results aren't good, albeit it that they may not be what you're looking for.  As for the forum being cliquey, maybe you feel that way because your combative approach brings a similar reaction from most of the active members?

Ray

[ELW]

The misinformation that you refer to, is a product of 6 or 7 years, work in progress.  Many of the ideas and theories from say 2005/6/7 have been superseeded by more reliable information, clearer accounts from actual BIR's/TA's and members practicing and striving to achieve their personal goal.  You may not always see the logic in these accounts but that doesn't mean that the results aren't good, albeit it that they may not be what you're looking for.  As for the forum being cliquey, maybe you feel that way because your combative approach brings a similar reaction from most of the active members?

Ray

Hi Razor, I picked up on this before I posted anything on cr0. I noticed members still looking for answers to questions 4 years on. But when a new name appears & asks a few questions, the same members appear to be able to answer them with cetainty , certainty  on matters which most people on here are clearly still unsure of. There is a cliquey side to this forum & it would have far more active members  if it didn't.
I was jumped on for my "rudeness" , for sussing abduls business model, & asking him to clarify, (which he felt the need to do) along with George, who went full out & said he felt duped(fair comment, I got his point), then the cliqueyness waded in, in support of abdul, fair enough, after all he has taken the time to contribute, "not you George" some "other" forum members, was the cry!(there only were two of us who commented on this) talk of low moderation etc...moderate what exactly??? If abdul doesnt post any more, we know where he can be found.
Ifindforu, was labelled some kind of fraud by members, now he has something they like, he's flavour of the month...Julian c2g recieved some some real negativity also from members who late went on to tell  Abdul to ignore negativity, when I queried one of his posts
Anyone selling anything should be open to questions

It would be a more welcoming place for new members if this kind of stuff was dropped.

ELW

[George]

Im looking forward to c2go's ebook hopefully later this month, as Iv spotted a couple of things in Julians techniques which may fill a few blanks for me personally.

One lives in hope. It's very good of him to post the videos and contribute here but, with the greatest respect, we don't actually know what his curries taste like. Are they in the (approx) 80% of BIR output which I now find a bit boring and of relatively little interest, or in the 20% of places which produce delicious flavours significantly better than I can produce. I think this critical test applies to anyone. Who knows if Pat Chapman can cook a meal which tastes very good at all, or whether anyone here is already in that top 20%? I do hope to visit Abdul's BIR some time and I'll report back if I do.

[Razor]

Hi ELW,

I can totally understand members questioning the motive when a member who has a commercial interest posts.  I'm also baffled as to why Abdul would suddenly post/email an "enhanced" gravy recipe when he could have simply posted the full recipe in the first place. I can see why some members would feel 'upset' over this. However, he did publish his "simple" base gravy in his book which by all accounts, has been received well by the members who have tried it.  He has also posted many recipes on here (that don't appear in "Learn 2 cook, vol I) that use the 'simple' base gravy recipe, so I can't question his motive as anything but sincere..!  Even if these recipes appear in vol II, he's kind of 'shut the gate after the horse has bolted'  the money earning potential has already been lost to cr0 members.

As for Ifindforu, yes I will openly admit, I was sceptical of him.  I hated the fact that he had a TA recipe for a mix powder but wanted to charge for it.  Who wouldn't be annoyed at that, especially as this forum prides itself on being totally free, and always will be?  But, as Ifindforu's threads developed, it seems that he was doing us a favour because of the availability of one of the ingredients (Eastern Star Curry powder) which can only be purchased in 10kg quantities.  Now, if he would have said something like; "guy's, I have a mixed powder recipe from my TA but you won't be able to replicate it because of the cost of one of the ingredients but, I can sell you a batch as I already have the expensive ingredient" then that would have been received much better by the forum.  Also, IFFU's writing style can be quite ambiguous (no offense meant) and that can lead to confusion and thus, distrust..!

Julian from curry2go faced the usual level of criticism from a forum like this as did Dipuraja when his videos came to light.  I suppose anyone with a commercial interest is 'fair game' on a forum like this, and as in business, they have to take the criticism but build up a trust.  I think that Julian has more than done that and I wish him every success (I still won't be ordering any Alu pans off him though )  The one slip up that Julian has made, in my opinion, was the white powder that he decided to keep to himself.  I don't know why Julian did that but I'm quite sure that that, will have done him more harm than good?  I mean, how can we replicate what he shows us in his videos, if he doesn't give us the exact recipes?  I have read his response a few times now, when the question was asked and I think that he simply, forgot to mention it but explained it off, tongue firmly in cheek, as a "trade secret".

I can also understand why newer members believe that there is a clique present, especially if their way of thinking doesn't generally follow the lines of the majority of the members but there is a way of going about things.  Ask questions by all means. I almost always welcome new members with a "ask as many questions as you want, sentence.  But what I object to, is when a member asks a question and then openly, completely dismisses the answer as "missinformation" or "faff" and then goes on to insult you and be completely obnoxious in the name of "understanding".  It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.  If they feel that the debate is getting nowhere, then why not pm the member and discuss it privately?, that way the threads keep on topic, other members don't have to trawl through the petty arguments and rubbish.

Ray

[George]

I almost always welcome new members with a "ask as many questions as you want, sentence.  But what I object to, is when a member asks a question and then openly, completely dismisses the answer as "missinformation" or "faff" and then goes on to insult you and be completely obnoxious in the name of "understanding".  It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs. 

I'm not sure about this but I think that any statement along the lines of "ask as many questions as you want" implies a 'them and us' situation like you're one of the resident experts and the newcomer is some kind of novice. This may be valid when a gardening expert responds to questions on the radio but, here, most people admit they've FAILED to produce dishes which match the best of BIR output, so I question whether anyone is an expert. Publishing a book and/or videos which produce food "95%" as good as 80% of BIRs may look good but how useful is it really? If we were back in 1981, then any of these recent books or videos would be a Godsend in getting you started, but do any of them really get you beyond 'entry level' and into amazing flavours?

[Whandsy]

Sorry to take this off topic guys but

How big is a chef's spoon??

Hehe  ;D only joking! Just thought i'd lighten it back up a bit, some valid points there though

[Razor]

George,

I'm not sure about this but I think that any statement along the lines of "ask as many questions as you want" implies a 'them and us' situation like you're one of the resident experts and the newcomer is some kind of novice.

Not really George, what it implies, from my part anyway is, if you are struggling with any of my recipes, they please, ask away!  For instance, if you can't get hold of a certain ingredient, then ask so I maybe able to offer an alternative ingredient.  And how welcoming does that sentence sound to a new member who may not necessarily be new to cooking but could be new to forums in general?  It's my way of making them feel at ease.!

I should imagine that quite a large number of new members are newbies to BIR style cooking, and to them, we maybe the experts.  They'll soon come to realise that we're not but we are useful to complete novices.  Once we get them on their way, they will soon hit the wall like so many of us, or maybe they won't?

I still ask members for advice.  Inbetween Christmas and New Year, I asked for help from both Chewtikka and Curry Barking Mad.  Without their help, I wouldn't have been able to create my centre piece that sat proudly on the middle of my table.  My guests were gobsmacked with the Raan of Lamb that was on offer, even forcing one guest to comment "Noway have you made that"  I did make it, but not without the help of two very helpful members.

I have been cooking curries for many years, without a great deal of success I might add.  That was until I joined cr0.  I got to the level that I am by asking recipe providers many questions, and for the most part, I got some really good advice.  Now, I'm definitely not an expert but I'm a damn good curry cook, if I say so myself :, and I am completely happy with the dishes that I make, so much so, that I feel I can offer advice if anyone wants it.  Its upto them whether or not they choose to go with my suggestions but please, don't insult me if it doesn't sit well with your way of thinking (not you George, I mean anyone asking for advice)

Ray

[Razor]

Sorry to take this off topic guys but

How big is a chef's spoon??

Hehe  ;D only joking! Just thought i'd lighten it back up a bit, some valid points there though

Hahahaha, love it ;D ;D ;D

[spiceyokooko]

It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.

And posting pictures of monkeys when you and your cronies decide you don't agree with an opinion is your definition of 'civilised debate' is it?

[curryhell]

It's total crap and if they really want to understand what is good or bad information, then that can be achieved through civil debate without the need for sarcasm and put downs.

And posting pictures of monkeys when you and your cronies decide you don't agree with an opinion is your definition of 'civilised debate' is it?

You must have hit a nerve Ray .  I must be one of your cronies.  Civilised debate?  Now that's rich coming from you Spicey, more like  a lecture on the spicey way of doing things, as all else is inherently wrong and not sufficiently empirical enough    "Hopeless"