Topic: New videos from Curry2Go in Chorley

[Cory Ander]

The list goes on

It does indeed Ray!  I compiled a list, spanning over a year or so, and the list runs into several pages!  I gave it up, as a futile task, in the end!  :

[Peripatetic Phil]

I can see that this subject for the vast majority of more 'experienced' forumistas is either 'too instinctive' or 'too boring' to bother discussing.

No, it's more the insufferable smugness of some of the participants that causes the rest of us not to bother participating ...

[Cory Ander]

I was hoping you might expand your thoughts on your experimentation with high flame gas burners to achieve that smokey flavour with the 'caramelisation' achieved with uncoated aluminium pans as advocated by Julian, but it's not a problem

I think I sort of did Spicey (w.r.t. pans, at least)?  To my mind the type of pan is not "essential".  But I think matching the size of your pan, to the size of your heat source, and to the volume of ingredients that you cook in it, is far more important (I.M.H.O.).

I would think that, like most (all?) others here, I struggle to get that "last" (or is it really HUGE???) bit of flavour and aroma that decent BIRs achieve.  Some members may disagree, but I would sure as hell like to try their curries for an independent assessment! 

I think high heat (correctly applied) helps to properly cook the spices and to develop flavours and aromas.

I can see that this subject for the vast majority of more 'experienced' forumistas is either 'too instinctive' or 'too boring' to bother discussing

I agree that, sadly, that is how it appears, Spicey. 

You are asking some reasonable and fundamental questions and are entitled to expect some reasonable and fundamental answers.

Unfortunately, this forum has always been rather strong on rhetoric but rather weak on answers. 

No offence to anyone; that's just the way it is (and always has been) 

Spicey, I think you will probably need to be more diplomatic and "entice" answers from members rather than to "bludgeon" them for answers (yes, yes, pot calling the kettle black once more, I know)! 

[spiceyokooko]

Understanding the science is without doubt, good knowledge to be in possession of but for me, and this is only my opinion, technique is key and if the technique has been developed through scientific means, then great but I don't really need to know that, I'll leave that to Heston ;D

Ray

As far as I'm concerned technique and understanding the theory behind it go hand in hand. If you don't understand the theory behind what you're doing, you're resigning yourself forever to being a 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' kind of cook. This means people can only create a successful dish by slavishly following a recipe word for word. As soon as they depart from that recipe it goes wrong. Why? because they simply do not understand the principles that underpin it. This is precisely why you get so much conflicting advice and opinion on this site - because people just do not understand what they're doing as soon as they depart from a recipe.

I've seen so many comments on this site like 'I saw a BIR chef do this...and as soon as I tried to replicate it I couldn't get the same flavour'. No shit sherlock! That's because you don't understand the technique that was being used!

Yet as soon as I try to push to understand precisely what's going on in creating a certain flavour I not only get people entrenching their views, and defending them, but trying to convince me their way is right through dogma! In other words, I know I'm doing this right instinctively because I've seen Ali the master BIR chef doing the same thing - bullshit!

If people here want to continue the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' route and all the restrictions that entails and are not interested in understanding what's going on - good luck to them. Personally I do not and do not want the restrictions of having to slavishly follow a recipe and want to go off and create my own dishes.

Personally I don't see that as being such a bad ambition to have.

[spiceyokooko]

Spicey, I think you will probably need to be more diplomatic and "entice" answers from members rather than to "bludgeon" them for answers (yes, yes, pot calling the kettle black once more, I know)! 

I think my time will be far better spent in the kitchen learning through experimentation, something I've always done, than bothering to extract the misinformation and entrenched contradictory opinion that pervades this forum.

That's a little unfair on a certain few individuals, but sadly true for the majority.

Anyway, carry on!

[Razor]

Hi Spicey,

If people here want to continue the 'Monkey see's, Monkey does' route and all the restrictions that entails and are not interested in understanding what's going on - good luck to them. Personally I do not and do not want the restrictions of having to slavishly follow a recipe and want to go off and create my own dishes.

Personally I don't see that as being such a bad ambition to have.

No, it certainly isn't mate, infact, it's very admirable.

My position is this, (and I'm not trying to defend it, just to explain it)  I love BIR style food.  I love to cook BIR style food and I am over joyed when I get it right.  I would love to know the exact science behind what it is that makes it taste so good but it's not that easy to come by.  Certainly, you will struggle to get the answers of most BIR chefs and I suspect that this is simply because they themselves don't really know the science, they indeed use the Monkey sees, Monkey does method.  Julian himself in his precooked chicken video tells us not to cook the chicken straight from the fridge but cook it from room temperature or the chicken will go tough.  He doesn't explain the scientific logic behind that tip and I suspect that he himself doesn't really know, he just knows that it goes tough if cooked from anything less than room temperature?

That's not to say that I nor he is ignorant in any way, I'm just saying that, if I singe my spices on the bottom of my pan, I know that it will get me better results than if I don't.  I don't understand in it's entirety what actually happens, apart from the spices getting cooked properly but like Julian with his chicken, I know that this practice works for me.

Another example of this is hard boiled eggs.  My mother taught me a long time ago that if I boil eggs slowly for 10 minutes, then plunge into ice cold water, it stops the outside of the yolk from turning green and smelling like farts!
She didn't have a clue as to why this was and was a tip passed onto her from her mother (monkey sees, monkey does)

Through the wonders of WWW, I understand the science behind it now but for years I didn't and still produced, non fart smelling, hard boiled eggs, with a beautiful clean yellow yolk, dya see where I'm coming from?

Where I would agree in some part is, if I was to give up my job to persue my cooking interest, just like Julian has done, I would definitely want to know more about the scientific aspect of cooking because, and I think this is where you are coming from?, I'd want to not only equal my rivals, but I'd want to blow them out of the water.  Having a good knowledge of food science would, I should imagine, give me the tools that I'd need to achieve that

Ray

[George]

If you have a non-stick aluminium pan, try to remove the coating, like I did.

Hello there George, thanks for your input.
Out of curiosity, how did you go about removing the non-stick coating on your pan?

I refer to a 'standard' non stick type coating, rather than 'anodised' or some other fancy type. My pan was a GBP3.99 non-stick pan which I knew was aluminium underneath. I used coarse sandpaper and metal scrapers to rough-up and remove the coating. Don't score too much or you'll dig into the aluminium base, when you really need as smooth a surface as possible. It was quite easy to do and may be more difficult to describe. I would never buy expensive pans with a big brand label and a price to match from somewhere like John Lewis. I'm not sure what extra you get with expensive cookware but I'm not for one moment suggesting you should use sandpaper on a pan which cost, say, GBP100 or indeed much more than GBP3.99. I reckon the end result is much the same. Don't expect it to transform' your cooking. I suggest it's simply another piece of the jigsaw.

Here's my original post, with photos of the pan, before and after:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4983.msg47788#msg47788

[spiceyokooko]

Certainly, you will struggle to get the answers of most BIR chefs and I suspect that this is simply because they themselves don't really know the science, they indeed use the Monkey sees, Monkey does method.

Ray

I understand fully where you're coming from here. But my point is and will continue to be, that there are certain 'fundamentals' you must know, and other things you don't have to necessarily fully understand to produce good results. My point is where that line is drawn is blurred and what the 'fundamentals' are and what they aren't.

What these 'fundamentals' are and aren't is not being defined.

What makes it worse is that there are some that are trying to argue that some of these 'fundamentals' take caramelisation for example does not have to be understood - I'm arguing to the contrary - caramelisation must be understood to produce the correct BIR flavours.

Your point with regards to Julians 'tip' on allowing chicken to rise to room temperature before cooking is just that - a tip, that helps you produce better dishes. It doesn't, will not, and won't change the overall 'flavour' of the dish you're cooking and therefore knowing and understanding the why's and wherefores of that is entirely irrelevant to the overall flavour of the dish you're cooking.

I'm interested primarily in flavours and how they're achieved within a dish. Indian cookery is particularly complex with regards to flavours because so many things can influence them, by understanding what these influences are, you can harness and control those flavours and produce the one's you want and the one's you don't. Given that BIR currys and traditional Indian food layers flavours over each other to produce one complex one, it's imperative to understand and control the influences over these layers.

If you don't and can't you'll always be a 'Monkey see's, Monkey does kind of cook. And with respect, this site is very good at producing those kind of cooks.

[spiceyokooko]

Here's my original post, with photos of the pan, before and after:
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4983.msg47788#msg47788

Excellent job there George and thanks for the tip. I'll have a closer look at mine and see if I can achieve a similar result. Other than that, it might just be worth buying a cheap new one like you did and just taking off the non-stick coating.

Many thanks.

Good Karma!

[Razor]

Hi Spicey,

Your point with regards to Julians 'tip' on allowing chicken to rise to room temperature before cooking is just that - a tip, that helps you produce better dishes. It doesn't, will not, and won't change the overall 'flavour' of the dish you're cooking and therefore knowing and understanding the why's and wherefores of that is entirely irrelevant to the overall flavour of the dish you're cooking.

No, it won't change the flavour but it will change your enjoyment of the final dish, another piece of the jigsaw.

The more I think about this discussion the more I think that I'm doing myself a bit of a disservice really.  As you say, the science and the technique are hand in glove and so, if you understand the correct technique, then I suppose that you understand the science to some degree?  Ok, I may not be able to explain it with a scientific approach but I do know what works and what doesn't for me at least.

It's turned out to be a quite interesting debate, really enjoyed it.

Ray