Topic: New videos from Curry2Go in Chorley

[spiceyokooko]

Julien from c2go mentioned 'caramelising' the cooked base in the pan, almost burning it to produce a flavour, which is a term i'v never heard on here regarding the pureed base. could he have been meaning the reduction of the 1st ladle?

Hi there ELW

I'm surprised no-one else contributing to this thread has picked up on your comment here, because for me, this represents one of the most important new pieces of information I've picked up on this site since I've been here. This could well turn out to be the final piece of the jigsaw I've been looking for.

I've been convinced in my own mind for a long time now that the final 5% does not exist in ingredients. BIR's do not have access to special ingredients we don't have access to - they're all commonly available via websites or specialist/wholesale Asian grocery stores. What does and can vary quite considerably (and you only have to look at any random forum post for this to be confirmed) is what people do with those ingredients and how they cook with them. Julian even confirms this in one of his videos - it's 50% ingredients and 50% technique.

I've now read this forum post from beginning to end and it beggars belief how posters can ignore something as important as this and go off at a tangent arguing the toss over chip fat oil!

It's patently obvious I think that this Julian chap knows what he's doing - you can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all the time - he wouldn't stay in business if he was producing dross dishes that didn't taste right. People wouldn't buy them and they wouldn't come back. If he says he uses seasoned oil from frying onion bhaji's in, then that's exactly what he does and uses in his kitchen. Whether this is standard BIR technique used throughout the industry is totally irrelevant - it's what he uses.

Quite why posters will then argue that for them this isn't the answer or refer to this practice as that old chestnut, I find extremely hard to understand. They don't feel it's the right answer for them, probably because they might be missing something else - that's not to say that fried onion bhaji oil should not be included in the list of key ingredient's.

Going back to your comment about caramelising the base sauce in a non-stick pan, I don't believe he's referring to a reduction of the first ladle of base. A reduction will produce a concentration of flavour from the base sauce, caramelisation will produce a sweeter, smokey flavour from the base sauce - two quite distinctive flavours. He's deliberately allowing the base sauce to caramelise or burn slightly on the bottom of the pan to create this flavour.

The dishes I've always produced have always been missing that smokey, sweet flavour, and given that I've always used an old non-stick pan for producing my dishes I can't help wondering if for me this could be the technique I've been searching for to give me that final 5%.

I'm interested in hearing others thoughts on this and what kind of pans they use to produce their dishes.

Cheers and Good Karma!

[PaulP]

Hi Spicey,

I use a carbon steel wok and wooden spatula to make my curries but the main reason is for quietness as my young son sleeps above the kitchen and I often cook after 10 pm. I believe the best tools are the bare aluminium pan and the steel serving spoon, like most BIR chefs use. I've known about the "caramelisation theory" as I'm sure others have on here probably since I cooked using the Taz base and method. The method utilises a particularly oily base that is reduced hard and fast while all the time it is continually scraped off the pan sides and bottom and remixed back in with the more runny sauce. This method definitely produces a sweet smokey taste.
It works just the same with "normal" BIR bases and cooking techniques.

Here's a link to the Taz stuff if you haven't seen it:

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4163.0

Regarding onion bhaji oil some people have tried it here and some have found it to be revolting. I suspect if people use the cheapest vegetable oil (which is nearly always the dreaded rapeseed oil) it goes rancid really easily and this may have caused the rotten flavour. I don't make bhajis so can't comment.

You are correct it is an important observation (caramelisation of base) but I suspect a lot of cooks achieve the effect without thinking about it just by watching loads of BIR videos and copying the technique as best they can.

I'm pretty impressed by Julian and hope to taste a curry from him sometime soon.

Cheers,

Paul

[spiceyokooko]

I believe the best tools are the bare aluminium pan and the steel serving spoon, like most BIR chefs use.

Why though? For the reason Julian gives? I've got a carbon steel wok, but don't use it for indian dishes, I find the temperature too difficult to control and keep stable - it's too thin and gets too hot too quickly.

Is it a coincidence that Julian recommends the aluminum pan as one of the 'tips' and also states that all BIR chefs use them as well as feature in every video I've ever seen? I think not.

I've known about the "caramelisation theory" as I'm sure others have on here probably since I cooked using the Taz base and method. The method utilises a particularly oily base that is reduced hard and fast while all the time it is continually scraped off the pan sides and bottom and remixed back in with the more runny sauce. This method definitely produces a sweet smokey taste.

But you're not using an aluminum pan, how do you know it's working in the same way? I'm currently using the Taz base for my current batch of experimentation and I'm adding the base in three 100ml batches and reducing each one down, but still not getting that elusive 'smokey' flavour. That's because caramelisation and reduction as I stated in my previous post produce two different flavours. Reduction concentrates a flavour, caramelisation extracts sugars from the onions and burns them producing a sweet, toffee, smokey flavour. Exactly the flavour missing from my dishes.

You are correct it is an important observation (caramelisation of base) but I suspect a lot of cooks achieve the effect without thinking about it just by watching loads of BIR videos and copying the technique as best they can.

Using an aluminum pan and the same ingredients that Julian advocates? I think you're giving people too much credit here in my opinion given that so few appear to understand the difference in flavour produced between caramelisation and reduction, let alone what differences a different material pan might produce. Does onion caramelisation produce the same results and flavour when produced in a non-stick pan, a carbon steel wok, an aluminum pan or stainless steel one? What about seasoned steel/iron or cast iron?

It's just my opinion of course and I'm not stating categorically that it's the right one for everyone, but for me and my cooking this is quite significant. I'll be testing this theory out as soon as possible after Christmas is out the way and things return to normal.

Cheers and Good Karma!

[PaulP]

Spicey,

I use the wok for the noise problems - seriously! I cook late and can't be banging a chef's spoon around an aluminium pan while my son sleeps. I have gotten used to using a wok and chef Taz actually cooked the demo for Mick in his own small steel wok. The original post of Taz was on the other forum and a few of us asked Mick if he would post the recipe here at cr0. I can't access the original post now on the other forum as my paid sub has expired but in the original thread the word "caramelisation" certainly did crop up.

Why aluminium? It is the choice for commercial kitchens and not just BIR. It is cheap, strong, great heat conduction with no hot spots, heats up and cools quickly on demand, easy to clean. In my opinion non-stick is only for people who fear oil in their diets and is obviously not tough enough for commercial use.

For Taz cooking the method described was to add 200 ml of base and cook until almost all the water content has gone and it becomes a thick paste. But it must be spread out over the cooking surface. You won't get caramelisaton by just boiling - the blended onions have to touch the hot metal pan. Wok or aluminium pan it works the same.

You stated that so few seem to understand the difference between caramelisation and reduction but the only evidence you have for this is a lack of response on this thread? As I implied you don't need to know the science, you just need to do it correctly. Try watching chewytikka cooking his madras on the video - he knows the technique.
BTW I haven't cooked the Taz recipes for ages, next base will be the one from ifindforu.

ATB

Paul

[jb]

A silly question perhaps....but....where exactly does Julian mention the technique of 'caramelising' the base in the pan.I've watched his videos with great interest but I must have overlooked that.In his vindaloo video he talks about almost 'burning' the ingredients in his pan but that's BEFORE any base sauce is added,I guess it's in another video??

[Whandsy]

A silly question perhaps....but....where exactly does Julian mention the technique of 'caramelising' the base in the pan.I've watched his videos with great interest but I must have overlooked that.In his vindaloo video he talks about almost 'burning' the ingredients in his pan but that's BEFORE any base sauce is added,I guess it's in another video??

Hi Jb

Its in his video entitled "the curry pan", it actually makes a bit of sense that video as well imo

Wayne

[JerryM]

It's patently obvious I think that this Julian chap knows what he's doing

He certainly does. and there in lies the problem we face on a regular basis - and which you describe.

by way of an example the biggest striking thing of all Julian's posts is putting green pepper in bunjarra. i know my bunjarra and although i've never tried green pepper in it - it's a complete no no for me. clearly for Julian it's a yes yes. neither of us are wrong.

whilst it's frustrating that there is no single right answer or way it's what makes curry so interesting and diverse.

[jb]

A silly question perhaps....but....where exactly does Julian mention the technique of 'caramelising' the base in the pan.I've watched his videos with great interest but I must have overlooked that.In his vindaloo video he talks about almost 'burning' the ingredients in his pan but that's BEFORE any base sauce is added,I guess it's in another video??

Hi Jb

Its in his video entitled "the curry pan", it actually makes a bit of sense that video as well imo

Wayne

Thanks that completely passed me by,a very important tip imo, I must get a proper pan,when he tilted the non stick one you could see what he was talking about. 

[spiceyokooko]

You won't get caramelisaton by just boiling - the blended onions have to touch the hot metal pan.

Paul

No you won't, boiling is simply removing water from the sauce and concentrating down the liquid, caramelisation is removing the sugars from the onions and burning them by heat. Two different things - two different flavours.

You stated that so few seem to understand the difference between caramelisation and reduction but the only evidence you have for this is a lack of response on this thread?.

The only evidence? Do you not think that if this is such a fundamental 'technique' to achieving such an important BIR type flavour that the subject of what type of cooking pan is essential to achieving it would have been discussed at some length? If there is such a discussion, please feel free to post the link to it, I'd be fascinated to read it.

I've read thread after thread about various base sauces and various mix powders with to be honest, very little difference between them. And these are discussed at length ad infinitum! Yet the importance of the type of pan to be used is so basic, no-one bothers to discuss it?

As I implied you don't need to know the science, you just need to do it correctly. Try watching chewytikka cooking his madras on the video - he knows the technique.

Does he know the technique, or is it purely by accident because someone told him he has to use that type of pan to achieve the results he's looking for without explaining why?

The proof of the pudding so to speak is in the eating. Let's see how many forum members come forward and state categorically that they use that type of aluminium pan, fully understand the reasons for why they need to use it and also achieve the results of base sauce caramelisation and that smokey, sweet flavour it produces.

I'm genuinely fascinated to see exactly how many people come forward!

Cheers and Good Karma!

[PaulP]

Spicey,

I do wish you would stop telling me what I already know e.g. what caramelisation is. I have a scientific educational background so this stuff really isn't too tasking for me. A lot of people on this forum already use an aluminium pan and some use woks but I couldn't tell you the numbers, not without a poll and that would be meaningless as not everybody would reply.

This forum is now quite vast and I can tell you that the subject of pans has been discussed from time to time but I don't have time to look for you to provide the links. Not everybody will come rallying to this thread to tell you what pan they use because 1) it is off-topic and should be a new thread or a old thread brought up again 2) you are slightly confrontational bordering on insulting at times to members of cr0. (questioning cooking skills, mocking other discussions etc)

I think you miss the fact that lots of people on this forum cook very nice curries that they are happy with but some of us are after a little extra and that is the hard bit to achieve. You seem to think that most of us feel like we have failed and the truth is far from it. A few members of cr0 (eg. ex-pats in Thailand) have opened curry businesses with information from this forum.

You don't need to understand anything for this malarky, you don't need to be clever, you just need to do it right.
How that is learned is another matter. Most Asian BIR chefs will have been shown the ropes by a more experienced chef.

If you want to talk about pans please start a new thread or find an old one and resurrect it, and I won't continue to discuss this in this thread.

Cheers and I hope you get a new pan for Christmas 

Paul