Topic: A couple of changes to Kris Dhillon's madras

[Peripatetic Phil]

OK, so let's try to get back on a more constructive basis. I for one have certainly learned something : that KD has her own garam masala mix which I have almost certainly never made.  So my next KD will be using her garam masala, and I look forward to reporting back on what difference it makes.  I will also go back to her original quantities, since at worst I will end up with one below-par curry, but I certainly hope to learn something from the experiment.

** Phil.

[peterandjen]

Best of luck to you with the Champix PaulP i'm on them too, they're brilliant those little pills, make you feel a bit bloated at night but other than that excellent, Eating before taking the night time jobby helps with the farting, talking of which there's been a load of gas in this thread.
I wonder if spicyokooko is Kd's publisher?
Its fine to have an oppinion and state it, but i think there's a line between interesting conversation and just fecking boring
I bought The new curry secret, its on my bookshelf covered in curry stains, i followed the recipes to the letter, i think her naan bread recipe is ok for a beginner, but none of its bir standard imo. You get better results with some of the cr0 users recipes, or Dipuraja, god bless his sole, The Authentic Balti Cookbook ABC, is excellent and much better value for money, as stated imo.
I honestly can't see me opening Kd's book agaqin since i started coming here, but then again that's my opinion. And i am not just bashing Kd's book, there's a shelf covered in them here that are as far from bir fair as hers, its just that this threads about Kd isn't it?
Anyway, excellent thread .

[Razor]

Whoa, hang on a minute.  It's all very well ceasing to comment on a thread that "we" think is going nowhere in terms of understanding but when spiceyokooko makes comments such as this;

Yet earlier in the thread you stated virtually the opposite!

Confused? Yes I am, but I'm sure you've got a rational explanation, you seem to have plenty of those 

then surely I have the right to reply?

I think that's a bit unfair as it implies that I'm over-opinionated?  I was asked a specific question by Spiceyokooko, which I tried to answer the best way I could.;

So here's my question - what garam masala mix do you actually use? Your own? A bought one? or Khris's? Have you actually made Khris's base, her recipe for Madras, her own Garam Masala Mix recipe in the exact quantities she describes and on that basis feel that 1tsp of her Garam Masala added at the end of cooking overpowers the dish?

I'm really curious about this.

And here was my reply;

Sorry for the late reply to your original queries (I must of missed it somehow )

I have made KD's GM recipe to spec and used it as specified in her recipes.  Whilst I agree with you with regards to the level of coriander seeds and cumin seeds being quite high and unusual for a GM mix, the aromatics such as cloves cinnamon, nutmeg, cardamoms (green/black) still burst through and to me, give the dish a "pharmaceutical" note.  That's just my opinion, and I would stress to anyone, try to make the dish to spec first before making any changes, whether they're recommended by me or others.  Changing a published recipe before trying it, just because you don't like the look of it, is probably going to take you further away from what your taste buds prefer rather than closer to it...!

Now I think I have given a fair reply to a fair question?  As you can see, where I have bolded certain text, I clearly state that this is MY opinion (of which I have loads of apparently) and mine alone.  I also stress that the recipes should be done to spec before being changed, whether that be on my recommendation or others.

It seems to me Spicey, that you are taking my replies the wrong way, as If I'm trying to be confrontational or something?  I'm not confrontational nor am I over-opinionated but I do try to offer a helping hand to anyone who asks for it, based on what I have learned from my time on cr0.  I always try to answer a question as honestly and as thoughtfully as I can, with the hope that it will help others.

I'm sorry if you and I disagree on what 'Garam Masala' actually is, but the fact remains, Garam Masala is not what is known as mixed powder; AKA Curry masala, base spice, restaurant masala, spice blend, mixed spice and so on....

Quote from: Razor on Today at 12:40:33 PMGaram masala is exactly that, Garam meaning 'hot', masala meaning 'mix'  If a recipe calls for Garam Masala, then that's what it should mean.  It shouldn't mean 'curry masala' as that is a completely different beast.

Spiceyokooko's reply Based on who's viewpoint, yours, chewytikka's or hers? The problem and confusion here I think is that Khris Dillon can call her 'Spice Mix', 'Mix Powder' 'Curry Masala' (note how there's already three and plenty more names for the same thing) whatever she want's to, it's her recipe book after all!

No she can't Spicey, not if she means Garam Masala and whilst I agree, she does provide us with her own recipe for garam masala, it doesn't change a thing.  She has given us a recipe for GM and not restaurant masala (another name).  The below text is taken from Kris's New Curry Secret, page 29, Getting Started, and is how she describes what SHE means by garam masala;

a) Garam masala

Garam means 'hot' and masala a 'mixture of spices'
According to the Ayurvedic concept of health, food items
having differing effects on our bodies and our health due to
our constitution or tri-dosha. The heat from this 'hot' spice
mix is not a heat that you taste with chillies, but one
that warms the body. Spices such as cloves, cinnamon,
black cardamoms and nutmeg are the garam constituents
of this aromatic mixture.

I think that that, explains exactly what Kris is asking us to use when she calls for garam masala in her recipes, and her reasons as to why we should use it (health benefits).

Kris Dhillons Garam Masala, makes 3 tbsp (45g?)

1tbsp coriander seeds
1 tbsp cumin
1 tsp green cardamom
1tsp cloves
1 tsp black peppercorns
2 sticks of cinnamon
2 bay leaves
0.5 small nutmeg
4 black cardamoms

Pat Chapmans Garam masala, makes 200g

4.5 tbsp coriander seeds (similar proportions to KD)
2.5 tbsp white cumin seeds (roughly half the proportion to KD)
5 tsp aniseed
5 x 5cm pieces cassia bark (Similar to cinnamon)
1.5 tbsp green cardamom (similar proportions to KD)
1 tbsp cloves (similar proportions to KD)
1.5 tsp dried mint
4-6 bay leaves
2 tbsp dry rose petals (optional)
1 tsp saffron stamens (optional)

Savitri Chowdary's Garam masala makes a good jar full? (taken from a very old book, Indian Cooking)

2 oz black peppercorns (Included in KD's GM)
2 oz coriander seeds (included in KD's and PC's GM)
1.5 oz cumin seeds (included in KD's and PC's GM)
0.5 oz cloves (included in KD's and PC's GM)
20 green cardamoms (included in KD's and PC's GM)
0.5 oz cinnamon (Included in KD's GM)

So Spiceyokooko, as you and others can clearly see, a garam masala is defined by it's main ingredients, and NOT by mine, yours or even KD's interpretation of what garam masala is (although KD's IS a garam masala by definition.

And, whilst it seems that we are arguing (though I thought that we were debating) over a single ingredient, albeit a very important one, what you have completely missed is this quite important fact; forum member Missy has opened up a cafe/restaurant in Thailand and has requested much help and advice through various threads on cr0.  My first post in this thread was made with that in mind.  It was aimed at a forum member, who was trying to make a success of his new business in Thailand, with the very best intentions.  It was made with a 'commercial' aspect in mind as well as my own PERSONAL opinion, which I believe Missy holds in high regard, based on previous corespondents with him.  Maybe if you would have spent a bit of time, getting to know the forum, reading through some of the fantastic posts on cr0 and getting a flavour of the general theme, then maybe you wouldn't be reacting in such an offended manner just because our ideas or theories differ!

And as for this comment;

What it appears to me to be, is an entrenching leading to a defence when challenged of individual peoples opinions and views, which as a relative newcomer here is extremely disappointing to see.

Nobody has said that you can't have an opinion and nobody is having a go at you because of your opinion. I am/was, simply trying to give an answer to your question based on MY OWN opinion first, and second, what I and many others know, as fact.  Sorry that doesn't fit in with your own ideas, but what can I say, life goes on?

Ray

P.S,

when Khris wrote that book, the closest convenient term for her to use for a general purpose 'Spice Mix' was probably 'Garam Masala' and that's probably the reason she used it.

No it wasn't, commercial curry powder would have been much closer for her to have used...!

[Cory Ander]

Sounds like everyone makes some important points to me!

• Members really should make recipes AS SPECIFIED (at least in the first instance) before they can reasonably and fairly critique them (which, it seems to me, is SOO's main point and with which most others seem to agree)
• Kris Dhillon was one of the first (albeit several years after Pat Chapman, as far as I know) to bring "BIR-like" cooking methods (i.e. highlighting the use of a curry base) to the masses in her "The Curry Secret" book.  As such, she influenced many thousands of curry aficionados, throughout the world, and should be respected for it accordingly
• Kris's method (particularly using garam masala in almost all of - if not all - her recipes...plus the absence of the other typical BIR aspects from her methods, as highlighted by CT) is distinctly UNrepresentative of typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIR cooking methods (which is, it seems to me, CT's main point)
• Kris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?).  It certainly is NOT a typical "spice mix" ("mix powder", etc) used by typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIRs - which generally comprise turmeric, coriander, cumin and chili (and/or paprika) plus maybe some other stuff (one of Ray's main points it seems to me)

Seems to me that everyone is actually in broad agreement then! 

From my perspective, I tried Kris's recipes, way back in 1989, when she first published her book, making and using her garam masala and her recipes, as specified, and I found them distinctly lacking.  But my "yardstick" was (and still is) typical Bangladeshi BIR cooking.  I would agree with CT that the reason I found them lacking was undoubtedly for the reasons he's cited.

[Cory Ander]

It also explains to me why there are so many crazy theories and notions on how things are done in a BIR kitchen.

Would you care to elaborate on which "crazy theories and notions" you think these are CT?

[Razor]

Hi CA,

• Members really should make recipes AS SPECIFIED (at least in the first instance) before they can reasonably and fairly critique them (which, it seems to me, is SOO's main point and with which most others seem to agree)

Absolutely couldn't agree more which I make very clear in my initial response to Spiceyokooko.

• Kris's method (particularly using garam masala in almost all of - if not all - her recipes...plus the absence of the other typical BIR aspects from her methods, as highlighted by CT) is distinctly UNrepresentative of typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIR cooking methods (which is, it seems to me, CT's main point)

Again, totally agree.  Even though KD is not to my taste, what she has done for the home cook is amazing, and is why I have both copies of her books, even though I was advised to spend my money on something else by a cr0 member.

Kris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?).  It certainly is NOT a typical "spice mix" ("mix powder", etc) used by typical (i.e. Bangladeshi) BIRs - which generally comprise turmeric, coriander, cumin and chili (and/or paprika) plus maybe some other stuff (one of Ray's main points it seems to me)

Spot on, it is my main point along with the fact,  'that KD's "GM" is her spice mix but didn't call it a spice mix back then because we wouldn't have understood, so she called it GM because she knew that that was a product that we WOULD understand?  No, I'm sorry but I don't accept that.  She states GM because she wants us to use GM, I don't think that she could be any more clearer in that?

I'm even pissing myself off, labouring over this point.

Ray [/list]

[Unclebuck]

whats garam masala?

[Cory Ander]

Just another couple of observations on this topic:

1.  "The Curry Secret (Indian Restaurant Cooking at Home" describes itself (back cover and Introduction) as giving "the secret of Indian Restaurant Cooking....the particularly interesting and distinctive variety that is served in Indian restaurants ALL OVER THE WORLD" (my emphasis).  So there never was any suggestion of it being of the variety that is served specifically in British Indian Restaurants (as generally staffed and run by Bangladeshis)

2.  Kris, herself, has this to say about her Garam Masala:  "The garam means hot and the masala a mixture of spices. so this is a hot spice mixture.....Spices such as cloves, cinnamon, black cardamons and nutmeg are the garam (i.e. those having a "warming effect on the body") constituents of this aromatic mixture....The garam masala should be put into foods TOWARDS THE END OF COOKING" (my emphasis).  So CLEARLY (and it IS crystal clear) Kris meant (and means) GARAM MASALA in the conventional/traditional sense of the term.

It is also interesting to note that she adds the spices to the boiling curry base (in oil), rather than frying the spices first (not too dissimilar to Taz's method, in fact).

[Cory Ander]

It also explains to me why there are so many crazy theories and notions on how things are done in a BIR kitchen.

Would you care to elaborate on which "crazy theories and notions" you think these are CT?

I think it would be really interesting, and very helpful to members, if you could please elaborate on this CT?

[spiceyokooko]

Hiya Cory

It's interesting to read your comments here and I'd just like to follow up on a couple of them as I've now finished all the cooking and experimentation I'm going to do with Khris Dillon's base sauce and Madras recipes.

Kris's "garam masala" IS distinctly a "garam masala" (I can't see how or why someone would argue otherwise?).

I don't think I've ever disputed that Khris's Garam Masala is Garam Masala, apart from a comment on the fairly large quantities of Cumin and Coriander it contains. What I have disputed, and fairly rigorously (and will continue to do so) is the way in which it is USED in her recipes. There's a distinct difference between what its called and how its used and I don't think many people have picked up on this - and is the specific reason I've queried peoples use of it in her recipes in this thread.

As far as I'm concerned (and nothing I've read in this thread so far makes me want to change my opinion) she's USING it as a 'Spice Mix' and not how a Garam Masala is traditionally used - and that is at or towards the END of cooking.

Example: Cooking onions. Boiled, sweated, fried and caramelised onions will all have a slightly different taste and texture and produce a slightly different flavour profile when used within a dish. The ingredient has remained the same - the onion, the difference is in HOW they've been cooked. Spices, powders, pastes and Garam Masalas are no different.

Why do I think and believe this?

1/ As I've previously mentioned, Khris's Garam Masala contains very large quantities of the two most common spices used in Indian cooking - Coriander and Cumin which constitute two thirds of the entire volume of that Garam Masala. That is NOT a typical Garam Masala mix, which in it's purest form would only ever contain 4 main ingredients, with Cardamons usually greater in quantity than the other three  - Cardamon, Black Pepper, Cloves and Cinnamon. Those four ingredients (with the addition of nutmeg) only constitute one third of Khris Dillons entire Garam Masala mix.

You would never ever add a spice mixture containing such large quantities Coriander and Cumin at the end of cooking, you would always want those spices to be cooked out/into the dish itself.

2/ Khris's recipe for standard Chicken Curry or Madras states that the Garam Masala (and half a teaspoon of ground Cumin and a pinch of ground fenugreek) be added to the dish at the HALF WAY stage of cooking. That is NOT at the end of cooking. She intends that the Garam Masala, the half teaspoon of Cumin and pinch of fenugreek be cooked into the dish itself - as any spice mixture containing such large quantities of Cumin and Coriander (as well as ground fenugreek) would need to be.

That is why I believe she is USING it as HER spice mix, regardless of what it's called, and this is clearly not substitutable with a commercial Garam Masala either.

What started all this for me was Ray's initial comment right at the beginning of the thread where he stated that if he used Garam Masala, it was only ever a pinch at the end of cooking. Straight away, Ray has assumed that in Khris Dhillon's recipe the Garam Masala should be used at the end of cooking - as it would traditionally be used. Khris Dhillon's recipe calls for it to be used in the MIDDLE of cooking, not at the END.

This was further compounded when he mentioned the dish he cooked had a 'pharmaceutical' taste to it. Well it would (and has been confirmed by my experiments on the dish) that it will indeed have a 'pharmaceutical' taste if the Garam Masala is incorrectly added at the END of cooking and not cooked into the dish by adding it earlier.

This formed the basis of my comments that I could not understand how Ray could have cooked Khris Dillon's recipe according to her instructions, yet got a taste totally consistent with the incorrect use of Garam Masala at the end of cooking.

As everyone I think has agreed, recipes have to be cooked PRECISELY according to the instructions given if your subsequent comments and criticisms on the dishes are to be reliable and useful.

Given that I still doubt Ray has cooked Khris Dhillon's recipes according to her instructions, his subsequent advice given at the beginning of this thread would appear to be unreliable. I'm new here and was looking for guidance, the first piece of information I look at turns out to be unreliable - that's not a good start is it?

All of this of course is only my personal opinion and as such I feel I'm entitled to express it.

Cheers and good Karma!