Topic: Chicken Tikka Jal Frezi by Razor

[Razor]

Hi CA,

The rationale for this?  not sure CA but it just works.  Maybe it's more a question of science rather than rationale.  Maybe chopped onions release enzymes that prevent the onions from 'sweetening' up to the same degree as whole onions when boiled?

I have tried other base recipes with the same or very very similar ingredients to chewys with very different results.  And I agree, the BIR's/TA's probably don't chop their onions more out of convenience than reason but, there are many a discovery throughout the ages that have been stumbled upon rather than sought!

As for the sieving aspect, Chewy never suggested the the old school BIR's sieved there base, what he said was, the old BIR's often boiled up whole chickens within the base and therefore passed their base through a 'food mill'.  Using a sieve makes a perfect substitute for those who don't posses such an item.

Have you tried this method CA?  If not, I would encourage you to give it a try.  You will be amazed as to how much 'gunk' is retained in the sieve.  I've even tasted this 'gunk' and it tastes very bitter, probably the ginger although I know that you don't really subscribe to that theory.  If I can take that out of my base before I use it, then it's sieving all the way.

Ray

[Cory Ander]

Hi CA,

The rationale for this?  not sure CA but it just works

As I said, I haven't found this.

Maybe it's more a question of science rather than rationale

Yes, science/rationale.....it's what I was after..

As for the sieving aspect, Chewy never suggested the the old school BIR's sieved there base, what he said was, the old BIR's often boiled up whole chickens within the base and therefore passed their base through a 'food mill'.  Using a sieve makes a perfect substitute for those who don't posses such an item

Right, but I'm questioning whether they do/or ever did this (whether using a "food mill" or a "sieve")?  Particularly in the absence of chickens in the base.  Hence my comment (regading CT) about it being yet another "daft question" or, indeed, "trolling"...

Have you tried this method CA?

Yes I have, Ray, both using whole onions and sieving.  I didn't find boiling whole onions changed anything (apart from avoiding the hastle of peeling them).  Whilst I agree that sieving removes a fair amount of "debris" (the absence of chickens aside), I am still uncertain of any benefits of removing it (or that BIRs would bother to do it due to time and, therefore, costs)?

[Razor]

As I said, I haven't found this.

I have, as have one or two others that have tried CT base.

Yes, science/rationale.....it's what I was after..

Sorry CA, I'm not a scientist, just an amateur cook that knows whole boiled onions taste sweeter than chopped boiled onions once blitzed with water.

Right, but I'm questioning whether they do/or ever did this (whether using a "food mill" or a "sieve")?  Particularly in the absence of chickens in the base.  Hence my comment (regading CT) about it being yet another "daft question" or, indeed, "trolling"...

Hand on heart, I couldn't say that they did or didn't but Chewtikka says that the places that he visited/worked in back in the 70/80's did and I have no reason whatsoever to doubt his word, especially based on the results that I'm achieving.

Yes I have, Ray, both using whole onions and sieving.  I didn't find boiling whole onions changed anything (apart from avoiding the hastle of peeling them).  Whilst I agree that sieving removes a fair amount of "debris" (the absence of chickens aside), I am still uncertain of any benefits of removing it (or that BIRs would bother to do it due to time and, therefore, costs)?

That's fair enough CA but why are my findings so much different to yours?  Did you taste the 'debris' that was caught in your sieve?  My 'debris' was really quite bitter so by removing it, I have removed an unwanted bitter element in my base.  Also, the consistency of the finished base and the resultant curries have improved quite dramatically.

I don't believe that BIR's or TA's would bother to sieve their base these days because unfortunately, it involves a bit of effort which they wouldn't be arsed doing but I definitely see the benefits of the method.

As for the onions, could it be that the onions you purchase down under are far sweeter than onions found further north?  Isn't it true that the further north an onions origin, the stronger, harsher the onion will be?  Maybe boiling whole onions in Oz is unnecessary.

Ray

[PaulP]

I also thought the sweetness of the onions seemed to come through more in the finished base when I used the whole onions.

As for the sieving it makes for a nice smooth sauce so I'll probably adopt the whole onions and sieving as standard when I make a base.

Cheers,

Paul

[Cory Ander]

Ray,

I have lifted this from another thread (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=5983.msg59356#msg59356) cos it's probably more relevant here:

I have found that boiling the onions in CT base, seems to bring out their sweetness

I am suggesting that there may be other reasons and that assigning it wholly (please excuse the pun) to boiling whole onions may be incorrect.

The only way to know, for sure, is to make this (or any other) base with chopped onions and also with whole onions (keeping everything else the same).  I have done this (with my base) and found no discernible difference.

I also did not find this base discernibly sweeter than mine.  However, that doesn't particularly surprise me because it is fairly similar in terms of ingredients (i.e. onions, garlic, ginger, CARROTS, capsicum, spices and TOMATO PUREE), cooking method (i.e. NO PRE-FRYING and the ADDITION OF SPICES TOWARDS THE END OF COOKING) and cooking times (around 1.5 hours, it seems to me?).

The recipe calls for no sugar.....It is also sweeter than other bases before the sieving process.  Now, as far as I am aware, and please, feel free to correct me if I am wrong but the only ingredient in the base that contains sugar(s) are the onions?

I think all the veggies contain sugar (to a greater or lesser extent)?

There are no other ingredients in the recipe that differ dramatically to that of other bases yet, it comes out sweeter

You don't say which other bases you are comparing it to but, in several respects, it is markedly different to some (e.g. yours):

• No pre-frying of onions, garlic, ginger prior to boiling
• NO TINNED TOMATOES (it uses puree)
• CARROTS
• CAPSICUM
• Cabbage
• Addition of spices towards the end of cooking

Now, MY theory and this only MY theory, is a medium raw onion contains about 9g of sugar.  By chopping up the onion you leave more of the surface area of the onion exposed to the boiling process, thus, allowing for the sugar content to dissipate.  By keeping the onions whole, you are effectively trapping those sugars between each layer and therefore retaining the sweetness that is otherwise lost.  Once blitzed, the onions natural sweetness runs through the whole base

You may be right, but I would think that sugar is sugar, that it will be present anyway (from all the veggies) and that it is finally dissipated anyway (via blending)?

So, why aren't you seeing a difference when clearly others are?

Maybe because I am comparing it to my base (which is similar in many ways)?  I don't know what you are comparing it to?

I also use a jug blender which, no doubt, blends it finer than a hand blender (hence I see no real need to sieve).  I doubt this affects sweetness though.....

I asked in the post related to this subject, are your onions sweeter in Australia than they are in the UK?

No.  As far as I can tell they are exactly the same.

Sometimes CA, it really does seem that you look for conflict when there isn't any on offer, which is a shame because you've so much more to offer

Sometimes, Ray, it really does seem that you misinterpret my intent.  I trust you see this post as it is intended (i.e. to enquire and to stimulate discussion and aid understanding) rather than to cause conflict.

[Razor]

Hi CA,

I really wish I could explain what it is that makes Chewys base sweeter than most with scientific facts, alas, I can't.  However, I do find it sweeter than others that I have tried, yours, The Taz Base, My own, Admin's, SnS's, KD Base, ABC Base and others. I would just like to add at this point to anybody reading these post's, when I describe chewys base as sweet, I don't mean sugary sweet as such, it's not 'sickly' sweet, so don't be put off by my description.

So, to try to compare it to other base recipes, would only be fair if they were very similar, so I would suggest that yours and possibly the KD are pretty close ingredients wise?

Now, on the last 2 or 3 occasions, I haven't included cabbage in Chewys base, so I rule that out as a possible source, as the finished base was still sweet.  I don't know what the cabbage adds to the base as I don't really notice it's absence to be honest!

The main difference, although there are others, is the boiling of the onions whole.  Interestingly enough, I find the KD base quite bland, whereas I find your base very nice, and up until making Chewys base, I only used mine and yours in my recipes.  But whilst your base is very good CA, I wouldn't describe it as being BIR sweet.  I know that's not important to the end dish as a rule but with Chewys base, that familiar BIR sweetness runs through every dish that I have made with it, and it is that flavour/sweetness that I have been searching for, for quite a while now, as you may remember.

With my own base, I fry everything off at the beginning in an attempt to bring out the natural sugars of the onions, and up until now, I thought that I'd gone some way to achieving this but I always feel like I need to give the sweetness a hand by adding sugar at some point, something which I don't believe is BIR practise.

I don't know CA, I really do wish I could explain it better but I am honestly getting a sweetness with Chewys base.  I think it's down to boiling the onions whole.  Just a thought, I do give it the full 3 hours, do you think that this could be a factor?

Ok, what I will do, is go back to my base, leave the onions whole and boil them for my usual length of time.  I will try to cut them with a spoon, and if they don't cut like a hot knife through butter, I will continue to boil until they do.

If I don't get the sweetness that I get with Chewys base, then it's back to the old drawing board I'm afraid

Ray

[Les]

This should be interesting Ray, Awaiting your results ;D
Whole onion v Sliced onion
HS

[coogan]

This should be interesting Ray, Awaiting your results ;D
Whole onion v Sliced onion
HS

Yes agreed. This whole, whole onion thing has buggered my base sauce theory right up. I was more than happy with mine. Now I need to knock a new batch up and do not know what to do. Whole onions or not. Three hours or one. Sieve or not. Cheers CT wink!. I can see something in the whole onion theory. I do know that when I bake whole onions in the oven or when I cook whole baby onions or shallots in the tandoor they do seem to be a lot sweeter then when cooked apart. I will try the onions whole - it got to worth it just to save on the prep if nothing else. Do not need the sieving as I grate the tough sinews out of the ginger pulp. Three hours or one hour this is my real dilemma.

Bon jovi

[curryhell]

Ok, what I will do, is go back to my base, leave the onions whole and boil them for my usual length of time.  I will try to cut them with a spoon, and if they don't cut like a hot knife through butter, I will continue to boil until they do.

If I don't get the sweetness that I get with Chewys base, then it's back to the old drawing board I'm afraid

Ray

I can't wait to hear the results too.  Hopefully, we'll have an idea as whether boiling the onion whole does in fact make a sweeter base.  If other too try this with their usual base the results will be a bit more conclusive.  I'll leave it to others more clever than I to explain the reason why if the tests prove positive  ;D.  I'll simply take it as a rule of thumb.  I'm making CT's base today so i'll post my comments a bit later on.

[madstwatter]

I have been using CBMs and Abdul's bases recently when cooking this jalfreizi but I found a tub of Chewy's base at the bottom of the freezer and I fully agree that it is much sweeter than the others and probably works better for this dish.