Topic: What dominates the flavour?

[flavorjunkie]

I would be very interested in what others think of the following...

When cooking spices it is a generally accepted fact that they release their flavours much more readily in oil than they do in water. This will have an impact on the making of curry base sauces and also individual curries.

Consequently, if a base sauce recipe calls for the spices to be included with all the other ingredients, including a quantity of water, it ensures that the release of flavour from the spices is inhibited. This may be why base sauce recipes often include a lot of oil. This will help the flavour release but does have a health impact in that we are probably consuming rather more oil than is good for us. In addition, when an individual curry is made, the style of cooking will impact on whether the dominant flavour comes from the base sauce, from the spices or a combination of both.
 
If a lot of base sauce is added and the spices are added to this, then, as previously mentioned, the spices will be cooking mainly in water with the consequent inhibiting of flavour release. This will mean that the flavour of the base sauce may well dominate the spices and therefore the final curry. If, on the other hand, the spices are initially cooked in oil and their flavours fully released and base sauce is gradually added as the cooking proceeds then the flavour of the spices may well dominate over the base sauce.

Many restaurants, along with their own base sauce, will use their own spice mix that can vary little from one curry to the next thereby almost ensuring that most of the curries on offer taste very similar. Add to this the fact that they use the same precooked meat in most of their curries and it becomes obvious why most of their offerings are similar. I experienced this recently when I visited the same restaurant 4 nights in a row and selected a different curry each time. The menu descriptions appeared very different but they basically all tasted the same.

There will naturally be exceptions to this with variations from restaurant to restaurant and area to area. No doubt different chef's cooking styles will also come into play, but the general principle appears reasonable.

I have therefore adopted a cooking style that uses a minimally spiced base sauce, with less oil than normal, and the same precooked chicken in all recipes. I cook different mixes of spices in oil to begin with and then, usually, gradually add base sauce as the cooking proceeds, along with the other ingredients. The result is a large variety of curries that are cooked BIR style but are very different in final taste. It suits me fine.

What do you think? Is it nonesense or does it have some mileage?

[Stephen Lindsay]

good post flavourjunkie

It didn't strike me as nonsense at all.

I suppose it got me to thinking about the base with the least spicing which would be an onion puree, perhaps with garlic and ginger, perhaps not. Take that to its extreme and you have the one-off, baseless curry as cooked in Indian homes. I wonder if you have a bit of a crossover between that and mass produced curries?

The best of both worlds perhaps?

[Peripatetic Phil]

It makes perfect sense to me, and also supports Kris Dhillon's methodology which uses very little spice in the base sauce at all (Stage-1: onion, garlic, ginger, water, salt; Stage-2 : Stage-1 + tomato, turmeric, paprika, oil). 

[George]

I have therefore adopted a cooking style that uses a minimally spiced base sauce, with less oil than normal, and the same precooked chicken in all recipes. I cook different mixes of spices in oil to begin with and then, usually, gradually add base sauce as the cooking proceeds, along with the other ingredients. The result is a large variety of curries that are cooked BIR style but are very different in final taste. It suits me fine.
What do you think?

I'm sorry, but your paragraph above doesn't make much sense to me. Please could you re-write it to make it clear what you're suggesting. Do you have one base sauce and various spiced oils, or what? How much spiced oil do you add to each resultant curry to vary the flavour of each, and when? Or have I misunderstood, especially as you say you use less oil than usual? I'm sorry I'm so confused.

[flavorjunkie]

George,
Sorry for any confusion

I typically use only one base sauce. This is used to make all my curries.
I do not use spiced oil as such, but, normally, initially cook whatever spices I am using in about 1 tbspn of oil to release their flavours. Depending on the actual curry I am making I will then add say 40 ml of base sauce and then gradually add the rest of the base sauce and other ingredients throughout the cooking process. I find this produces very different flavours rather that everything coming out much the same.
Does that make more sense?

If you are interested you could see it in more detail on my web site, although I am not trying to promote this here. It is a site dedicated to cooking for 1 person and has a section devoted to takeaway styled curries that is quite comprehensive.
You can find it at www.cook4one.co.uk/c2
In addition there is a menu page at www.cook4one.co.uk/c2/rm.html.
Alternatively you could go to www.cook4one.co.uk and negotiate from there.

The C41 base sauce is the one I usually use although there are others described.
It may appear to be very similar to the KD2 version, but this is entirely coincidental and I could go on for ages describing how it evolved, but that's another story.

[Razor]

Hi Flavourjunkie,

This post would be right up Jerry's street and once he picks up on it, I'm sure that he will offer you some very sound opinions, based on his extensive experimentation of all variables.

I get exactly where your coming from with regards to most dishes on the BIR menu almost having the same flavour.

Here's my theory, and I know not everyone will like this theory (SS)

Most run of the mill BIR curries are "formula" recipes, all using the same base, same spice mix and same precooked meat.  This will inevitably produce the same familiar flavour throughout their range.  For example:

Plain Chicken Curry;

1 tsp garlic/ginger paste
300ml base,
3 tbs veg oil,
1 tsp spice mix
1 portion of precooked meat.

Turn this into a Bhuna by adding an extra

1 tsp spice mix
1 chopped onion
1 chopped tomato
1 portion of precooked mixed peppers
and reduce the sauce until quite dry.

Turn this into a dupiaza by adding,

1 extra sliced fried onions
0.5 tsp chilli powder
pinch of sugar
1 tsp garlic/ginger paste
Don't reduce the sauce as much as you would for the bhuna.

Turn this into a Jal Frezi by adding extra;

1 tsp chilli powder
5 fresh green chilli's
1 tomato quartered
0.5 tsp of black pepper.

Ok, so these are not exact recipes but I'm using these stepped changes as examples of formula curries.  Does that make any sense?

If you are using the same base and precooked meat in all your curries but you are changing your spice compositions to suit each curry style, then you are not really following the BIR style, albeit that your final dishes may be amazing.  The trouble is, most of the BIR around the country, want to churn out dishes, with as little effort as possible, and make as much money as they can, hence the invention of formula curry dishes.  Sad but true.  Whereas what you are doing, is really defining each dish by giving it it's own masala, which is a far more complicated way of doing things, but will produce a very unique flavour to each of your dishes.

Just picking up on your comments with regards to the base, Axe and myself were discussing this a while back and I decided to knock up a batch of, onion, garlic, ginger and turmeric base, nothing else.  The colour was vile, the smell wasn't great either.  With that said, I cooked my standard madras with it, doubling the amount of spice mix that I usually use, adding slightly more tom puree than normal.  What I ended up with, was a reasonably good quality madras, not quite as nice as my standard recipe but good nonetheless.  Unfortunately, I didn't bother to continue with the experiment, as it had already answered the question, can a base consist of very few ingredients and still be a useable base? and the answer was a definite YES IT CAN.


It's a very good post FJ and deserves some interesting debate.

Ray

[George]

This post would be right up Jerry's street and once he picks up on it, I'm sure that he will offer you some very sound opinions, based on his extensive experimentation of all variables.

Aren't any other opinions as highly regarded in your opinion? God help us.

I agree with flavourjunkie's thinking and it fits with a certain strain of thought mentioned here many times, over many years, i.e. to keep the base sauce quite neutral, bland and almost boring, in order to  produce anything from a korma to a phall, later. Any other approach makes less sense, in my opinion. I could never understand how anyone could judge a base by regarding and tasting it like soup, as if it's a finished product in its own right.

[solarsplace]

I could never understand how anyone could judge a base by regarding and tasting it like soup, as if it's a finished product in its own right.

Hi George

I'm not sure it is wise to impose any limits of what should or should not be measured, judged or assessed, surely doing that would only impede progress?

What if a genuine base were found to be intriguing and very tasty in its own right, surely that is worth discussion?

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4851.msg46178#msg46178

Regards

[Razor]

George,

Aren't any other opinions as highly regarded in your opinion? God help us.

On the contrary George, I hold many peoples opinions in high regard.  Unfortunately, not everyone is willing to experiment as openly as Jerry does and publish their findings.  I don't expect everyone to agree with each others opinions or even like them for that matter but that is what the forum is about, expressing opinions, offering advice or another view on a topic, which may help someone out in the long run.

Personally, I don't like your "obvious" opinion of Jerry, criticising his grammar or suggesting that, if his opinions are of value to the rest of the members, then we are in trouble, but you, don't see me having a dig, do you?

The rest of your post in this topic is fair enough but unfortunately, you choose to open your post with a presumption, that is way off the mark BTW, and close your post with yet another dismissive view on how people judge their/a base.  It's their opinion George, not yours, leave them to it, please!

Finally, I would like to apologies to FlavourJunkie, for reactively going off topic.  Like I said before, I hope the rest of this topic receives the debate it deserves.

Ray

[flavorjunkie]

Razor,

Your comments about my style is exactly true.

I have never intended to 100% replicate any given curry from any given restaurant, but wanted a whole load of curries that were distinctive and delicious (my opinion of course and that of other curry lovers I have cooked for  ).

So they may not strictly follow true BIR and that's why I called them restaurant style meaning that they may use a traditional slant but are cooked quickly in BIR style ie with base sauce and precooked meat. There never seemed much point to me in cooking loads of curries (50 odd at present) that are all just variations on a theme as your post correctly observed.

As to them being complicated, I feel that they are in fact fairly simple, but well worth any extra effort that may be required.

Maybe this debate will go beyond what I ever expected. ;D

Rest assured no offense has been taken.