Topic: Why do British Indian Restaurants (BIRs) use a Curry Base?

[Cory Ander]

Topic started by 976bar and moved to here by CA

From 976bar:

I know we all rant and rave on about using base on this site, because it is a site trying to achieve that BIR taste. BUT, do BIR's use base because it is the commercial way to make great tasting curries economically?

If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?

I for one maybe just like Domi have made fantastic tasting curries using ingredients without even the hint of a base sauce......

I'm not knocking base and today just made a batch of CA's for the first time and will be trying it out next week.

But I wonder if it would be any different if money was not the object here........

From CA:

If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?

I think it's more to do with TIME 976bar.  I think that the traditional BIR method of making curries (using a base, precooked meat, etc) is so they can turn out a range of curries QUICKLY (rather than, or more so than, cheaply)

From 976bar:

If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?

I think it's more to do with TIME 976bar.  I think that the traditional BIR method of making curries (using a base, precooked meat, etc) is so they can turn out a range of curries QUICKLY (rather than, or more so than, cheaply).

If thats the case Cory, why do these so called "posh" restaurants as you call them manage to turn out quantity, quality curries without using base?........ They do cost a bit more, but no base......

From PaulP:

We're going a bit off topic here but I think the use of the base is to improve the quality of the finished sauce. I believe this is due to the large proportion of onion in the base and I'm not sure how you would achieve that without blending cooked onions.

I've tried a lot of traditional Indian curry recipes and the sauce has always seemed a let-down.

From 976bar:

We're going a bit off topic here but I think the use of the base is to improve the quality of the finished sauce. I believe this is due to the large proportion of onion in the base and I'm not sure how you would achieve that without blending cooked onions.

I've tried a lot of traditional Indian curry recipes and the sauce has always seemed a let-down.

Paul,

Try my Kashmiri Chicken Masala and also my Nepal Chicken using Mango, and a few others on here from other contributors. Believe me there are some fantastic curries to be made without the need of base.

Once again, I am not knocking base in any way, I also use it all the time, and made a batch of CA's on Saturday which is in the freezer and has not been used yet, but given time at the weekend I will be there bashing out BIR curries. However, it has to be understood that just because base is not used, it doesn't mean to say that it is not of restaurant quality. The Nepal Chicken is served by one of my local BIR's. Go take a look at "The Bombay Brasserie" in Kensington, London, a posh restaurant I think CA called it, but one of the most famous Indian Restaurants in London, that cook fresh Indian Cuisine without base.

I made a garlic chilli chicken on saturday using the last of my Safron base and a recipe from here, which was demolished by all I usually get some left over for the next day but alas not this time!

So, all in all I am extremely pleased I found this site, it has taught me so much over the past 2 - 3 years, and thank you to everyone who has contributed, but we must all remember that not all great curries derive from using just base..........

[Cory Ander]

we must all remember that not all great curries derive from using just base..........

I would think that no one would disagree with that 976bar.  It's just that all great "traditional British Indian Restaurant (BIR)" curries are made using a curry base! 

By "traditional BIR", I mean those Indian restaurants that proliferated, in Britain, in the 1970s and 1980s, and which were predominately Bangladeshi owned and run.

In my opinion, "traditional BIR" cooking is typified by the use of a pre-prepared curry base (and other pre-prepared ingredients, such as meats), and by other cost/time saving ingredients and techniques, in order to bang out a relatively wide range of curries, relatively quickly, at a relatively low cost.

Of course I should have said that time=money too.

On the other hand, "authentic" Indian cooking does not make use of a pre-prepared curry base (the "curry base" can probably be considered to be done, "in situ" i.e. when making the curry) and makes more use of exotic ingredients (e.g. whole spices and freshly roasted and ground spice blends) and techniques (e.g. marination, slow cooking, etc).

I have never done a comparison of volumes, costs and delivery times of "traditional BIR" restaurants versus "authentic" Indian restaurants, but I suspect the latter would always be slower and more expensive than the former; albeit equally delightful.

It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).

Upon reflection, I think the answer to your original question ("If money was no object, would they be making curries using a base? or would they adopt a different method?") is "yes"!  If time and money (and the Western pallatte!) were not factors, I think they (i.e. Indian restaurants) certainly WOULD use different techniques....and undoubtedly use a more "authentic" Indian cooking style.  It is pretty well known that many restaurant staff generally prefer to make and eat their own dishes, using different ingredients and techniques, rather than the dishes on their menu.

"The Bombay Brasserie" promotes its food as "authentic Indian flavours transformed into a contemporary gourmet experience"....using "exotic international ingredients and traditional techniques". 

Yes, to my mind, it is a VERY "posh" Indian restaurant (they even say "Sir Anthony Hopkins, Will Smith, Prince Charles, Tom Cruise, Mick Jagger, Nicole Kidman, Goldie Hawn, Tom Hanks, Bruce Springsteen, Mel Gibson, Danny DeVito and Sir Elton John are just some of the famous faces that have become fans of Bombay Brasserie over the years!")!  Curry leaf scallops on tomato chutney starter anyone (for around 11 quid)?  Or how about  duck with kumquat and ginger chutney (for only 22 quid  )?  No?  Then what about apricot and potato cakes with yoghurt and taramind chutney?  And not a madras, vindaloo, phal, jalfrezi, rogan josh, etc, in sight! They even garnish their curries with CHERRIES and STRAWBERRIES ffs......!  :-X

This restaurant is a clearly differentiating itself from the more "traditional BIRs" (from which it is about as far removed as you could possibly get!).  I'm pretty sure more and more Indian restaurants will do so, as palettes and demands change, and to capture niche markets (not to mention the rich and famous with very deep pockets!  ).

[joshallen2k]

It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).

Deep pockets have nothing to do with it. I personally am here because I enjoy working with others to recreate the grubby, fleck-wallpapered BIR fayre curries. Until the day when my tastes change for kumquat and scallops in my curry (when I am dead and buried) I will continue to work towards the perfect Madras, CTM, Vindaloo, Bhuna, Naan, and Pilao that I kindly remember my days (and late nights) in the UK for!

[Domi]

originally by CA

It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).

I think newer members are trying to recreate the curries they buy now rather than the ones from yesteryear that original members are striving for, which are two completely different animals. I tend to pay far more attention to posts by George, Haldi, CA, SS, Stew et al who are devoted to the old BIR taste (since that's what I strive for).... I can make the modern versions, in fact I can make better tasting modern versions than alot of the BIRs but I can't get a consistent old-style curry flavour I also think that often people think that recipes are being slated for not being up to scratch, but the criticism is merely that they're not traditional BIR - it's just that people are at cross-purposes

[Secret Santa]

Oh come on CA, you can't tell me you haven't rolled into a BIR late at night, after having a skinfull, and not demanded a " duck with kumquat and ginger chutney" to go...and don't spare the chilli, Abdul!

Man, you haven't lived.   

[Mikka1]

Indians like sauce just as much as we do. They create it in a pan using basic elements all day long at home.

The problem arises when you have 30 or 40 sittings in the evening. That is where base sauce helps but it isn't needed really so long as you know what goes where and when. If you don't of course then its just much more simple to create a sauce to which everything can be added in short notice.

BIR is a term. It doesn't mean GREAT cooking. It means that there is a system. That system is here too and in restaurants world wide. Though they differ I'm sure in some respects.

One note from this thread is VERY TRUE.

Creating something from years ago is nearly impossible. Yes people cook to what they know now and providing they capture it they will be able to pass that on. Hopefully with places like this that will be a possibility in years to come?

[Stephen Lindsay]

This is a super thread because it recognises the value of non BIR curries. I agree with CA's comment that the commercial need to produce curries in volume has driven the need to produce "standardised" recipes by rote.

I have a small collection or Indian or curry recipe books from the 60s and 70s and none of them mention curry bases. All the recipes in these books describe cooking curries from scratch starting with cooking onions (and usually garlic and ginger) in oil, adding the masala (spice mix), browning the meat then adding various liquid ingredients, e.g. tomatoes.

Indeed these books are not even attempting to describe BIR curries. They are promoting traditional home style cooking. They are none the worse for that. They are just different.

[PaulP]

I often wonder whether the BIR curry base was invented for the UK market by Bangladeshi/Pakistani chefs or whether a restaurant in Bangladesh/Pakistan would use the same technique for fast cooking.

One thing is for sure - it would be impractical to make a BIR base without a blender. From this perspective is cannot be seen as traditional Indian cooking.

I've tried (over many years) cooking Indian food as per the usual: Fry onions, cardamom pods, cloves, bay leaf, cinnamon etc. add spices, fresh tomato etc. I've never cooked a dish like this where the sauce tastes as good as one using a base sauce, and I'm not mad keen on eating whole spices either.

For me the BIR base sauce technique I learned from this forum has transformed the dishes I can make and I don't think the technique should be considered second-rate compared to traditional Indian food.

[Mikka1]

From the horses mouth as it were this is exactly what happened as I understand it. They do it here of course too and since this is a multicultural society in every sense of the word it varies from place to place. That said there are some places where you can tell its from the same descendancy.

I often wonder whether the BIR curry base was invented for the UK market by Bangladeshi/Pakistani chefs or whether a restaurant in Bangladesh/Pakistan would use the same technique for fast cooking.

[976bar]

originally by CA

It is "traditional BIR" cooking (i.e. WITH a curry base) that this forum is primarily focused on (or certainly has been), rather than "authentic" Indian cooking (i.e. WITHOUT a curry base).

I think newer members are trying to recreate the curries they buy now rather than the ones from yesteryear that original members are striving for, which are two completely different animals. I tend to pay far more attention to posts by George, Haldi, CA, SS, Stew et al who are devoted to the old BIR taste (since that's what I strive for).... I can make the modern versions, in fact I can make better tasting modern versions than alot of the BIRs but I can't get a consistent old-style curry flavour I also think that often people think that recipes are being slated for not being up to scratch, but the criticism is merely that they're not traditional BIR - it's just that people are at cross-purposes

Domi,

Being 50 years of age, I cut my teeth back in the 70's in Indian Restaurants and have loved curries from that era and would also love to re-create them. I'm not absolutely convinced that they used base back in those days, the craving just was not there like it is now for the british population for them to make a "mass base sauce" like today. I think it was more of an Indian traditional idea converted for western tastes.

Certainly today, when you consider that BIR is the most popular dish across our nation, then the need for a base is very important. But like most people on here I have not found that 70's/80's taste for years now....... and I certainly can't create it, thats why we are all here.

Yes Cory, I do agree with you, this site is based on creating that original BIR taste and I think we have strived to do that since the day this site started, but to be honest, we are always close, but never there......

That is not to say we should ever give up, and I think this is the only site in the world that will ever accomplish that with all our members, and please all keep the contributions coming.

However, whether it is a traditional BIR we are achieving or not, then all contributions, whether they be BIR or traditional should be more than welcomed.

You never know, someone might pick up a traditional one day and fathom a way to make it back into one of those 70's or 80's classical tastes.......

I certainly hope so

Keep up the good work everyone, I've visited other sites, but none are as good as this