Topic: Bruce Edwards Curry Sauce & Basic Curry - From The Man Himself

[joshallen2k]

Hi Roti,

This sort of stuff stumped me earlier on too.

- which curry powder is used in the spice mix?

Any quality commercial one will do. The Rajah Madras Gold seems to get good reviews.

- how much sauce is added to the curry?  Bruce mentions adding "a ladle of sauce" (a ladle being 7 fluid ounces?) and later mentions adding "the rest of the sauce along with the main ingredients"

I saw somewhere that a ladle was 142ml. So thats about half of the 7 fl. oz. Using that, the instruction makes sense.

- when is the salt and dried fenugreek added?

With the spices.

-- Josh

[JerryM]

adding to Josh's info for Roti - the 7 fl oz in the UK is 210 ml. this equates to a ladle and 1/2 for me as my ladle is 150ml.

[JerryM]

had a very long evening cooking last night making 7 portions.

for me raised more questions - not unexpected - this curry malarkey is quite tricky.

for those who have not yet reached say "95% there" then this base and recipe is spot on and well worth following - it brings very good learning at the technique.

for those chasing the last "5%" then there is some learning but i don't feel it's bridged the gap. i feel i need to work with the base and technique a bit more.

conclusion:

this spice mix was very different for me and i need to get to know it. i need to think about how i go about doing this. i feel there is still learning to be gained and remain upbeat on the 5%. pic of as spec curry minus chilli attached.

observations:
1) "slow boat cooking" - i very much liked this method c/w normal "hot frying" it produced very good results
2) the turmeric - i had the same yellow staining everywhere that i do with a TA. i've not had this before. i'm only lately warming to turmeric and the large amount present was fine (surprised me)
3) creaminess - the curries were very creamy. dare i say "moorish". i put this down to the blending of the garlic/ginger in the base and the ratio of onion. i might be tempted to increase the thinness of the base (add more water) to help with the 1/3 reduction during cooking - i felt i lost a bit too much of the base volume during the cooking

problems:

1) chilli/colour - i found following the instructions very difficult in terms of the colour/amount of chilli. i think if u can stand the 3 tsp then the colour will be right. i made the 1st curry to spec but without any chilli. this tasted the best i made all night but the colour was too "yellow"
2) hardness of onion - i have never been able to get the onion soft at frying stage without essentially pre frying. as i aim to cook the curry in ~7mins (2mins fry, 5mins simmer) i always leave onion out and replace it normally with fine chopped garlic. for curries 2 to 7 i left the veg out (ie onion, garlic, green pepper etc)
3) LB spice mix - i made curry No 2 using my std LB spice mix. I have tried the LB mix in some recipes before and it has not worked for the dish (ie Admins Jalfrezi). the same happened here. it's a big surprise as it's always produce a top notch curry sauce previously.
4) Paprika - in desperation for redness i added 1 tsp deggi and 2 tsp paprika to curry No3. this was OTT on the paprika and did not taste good. it did however have an undertone of the BIR i'm used to and a bit more fine tuning may deliver.
5) Oil separation - i did not get oil separation during simmer to guide on when the dish was cooked.

for the oil reclaimers:
1) Spiced oil - i did not have any to use and noticed it
2) Extra 1 hr simmer - i split the finished base and cooked 1/2 for the 1hr reclaim adding 200ml of water for evaporation. negligible oil was released say 3 tbsp. so this base is very tight on oil - possibly just a little too tight (too much oil is just as bad)
3) Curry using rec base - i feel the low oil reduced the effect of the 1hr simmer. however the taste was sufficiently different - enough that i would say beneficial (no longer "soupy".

[joshallen2k]

Wow Jerry, you really go all out on these analyses!

When you say 7 portions, I take it you made the Base per Bruce spec, and then fiddled with the Madras. Right?

After making so many great bases (this one included) and trying so many Madras recipes, I agree I'm still stuck on the 'last 5%' too. I like the BE Madras for its simplicity. Technique/tools has got to be whats missing. One thing that I think has improved my latest curries (thanks to this post) is the idea to have the base gravy preheated. The cooking seemed to 'flow' much nicer, and the aroma from the instant "burn-off" was also something that was missing. Hot base hitting the hot pan and instantly boiling was a definite plus in the end result, and made a more impressive show!

BTW, I agree on the "creamy" comment on the end result on this one. Big plus there in my book. On the Base oil amount, my initial thoughts were that it was too high. However, the Curry recipe specified on 2TBL of oil (which is a reduction from the previous BE Madras), meaning more oil was being relied on from the base. I did not need to skim any oil off, and the oil that did separate during the last minute of cooking the curry was nicely marbled into the gravy, instead of pools of oil, or none at all. I have a naan test to check the oil amount - when I dip a piece of naan into the curry I look to see how much gravy sticks vs. oil. This passed the test well.

Still haven't tried the modified CK CTM with this one yet...

--- Josh

[JerryM]

yes made 7 off curries:

1) Bruce's spec 100% but no chilli (actually best tasting curry of the night)
2) BE Base, LB spice mix, my std hot frying method - "toffee" smell (1st time but this spice mix did not work with this base ? real surprise)
3) BE spec, replace 1 tbsp chilli with 2 tsp paprika, 1 tsp deggi (has promise)
4) Reclaimed BE base, BE spec but replaced chilli with 1 tsp deggi
5) BE base BE spec but replaced chilli with 1 tsp deggi
6) BE base, std frying method, no chilli
7) Reclaimed BE base, std frying method, no chilli

i did not warm / preheat the base.

the naan dipping trick sounds a good test - certainly easier than going through the reclaim method on 1/2 the as spec base - this too confirmed a good pass

on the last 5% i have seen big improvement in adding whole spices to the base and removing before blending. my personal favs being cardamom, bay and anis (only a little anis - its strong on power). for me the spiced oil is also crucial.

agree on the "creamy" being big plus - i'm actually using slightly higher onion ratio and thinner sauce (for reduction at simmer) which is big improvement but i think the extra cream down to the blending of the garlic/ginger (i need to repeat it to confirm).

i like the higher proportion of turmeric (never thought i'd being saying it) - again i'm going to try out/repeat to confirm.

the only real difficulty i have is the missing paprika and why the LB spice mix does not work.

 

[haldi]

the aroma from the instant "burn-off" was also something that was missing.
--- Josh

Yes Josh,
         That's what I felt
I never got this BIR spice burn off moment
The aroma was completely missing
It's probably something I'm doing wrong, but it seems far harder to achieve this with so little spice
It's only half a teaspoon plus whatever chilli you add
And bear in mind a large portion of this spice mix is turmeric
Turmeric doesn't really have much of a smell
It's this point of cooking that the problem seems to arise
The base is really excellent, but I can't seem to create a curry with only half a teaspoon of spice
I hope Bruce is watching these comments as they are gradually added, or this is going to an awful lot to wade through!!

[JerryM]

Haldi,

this 1/2 tsp did bug me too - i felt i wanted to go to 1 tsp. i'm going to try this tonight.

With the as spec "slow boat" cooking method there will not be the same "burn off". I must admit I could not distinguish a difference in final curry taste from the 2 methods slow boat c/w toffee smell hot fry

[Cory Ander]

Great to see that an acknowledged expert is posting on the forum Bruce.  It would be great to get continued feedback and advice from you 

I made the base, to the letter, using fresh tomatoes (I find tinned can be bitter), green pepper (it's much cheaper than red) and coriander stems and roots (to avoid it becoming overly green coloured).

It produced a very good base similar (unsurprisingly) to the best of the other bases on this forum (Darth's, Infindfu's, SnS's, etc). 

It was fairly sweet (I think boiling the onions rather than frying them helps with sweetness), light coloured, creamy and distinctly oniony (again, unsurprisingly).  I didn't get much oil rising to the top (but I'm not worried about that).

The ajwain seeds produced a subtle, pleasant and discernable smell and taste which I actually liked (I would be interested to know where this idea actually comes from Bruce? I have only ever seen it prescribed in your curry bases?).  Their taste is even more subtle (thankfully), but still discernable, in the final curry.I would caution  against others' advice about adding more though.  They really are quite overpowering and smell and taste dreadful if over used. 

I didn't think the base was overly spiced.  I think adding the spices, towards the end of cooking (as prescribed in one or two other curry base recipes on the forum), helps preserve their flavour in the final curry.  The consistency was perhaps a little thick.

I think this base can be heartily recommended to all newcomers 

The trouble I have is knowing how this base compares (appearance, taste, texture and smell) to those of a typical BIR?  How do others, that have bought bases from BIR's, think it compares?  (Haldi, for example, who I know has bought several bases and cooked them at home?)

I made the associated curry sauce (without meat), as described, though I too was unsure about prescribed amount of base to add (I added the 7 fluid ounces mentioned as the ladle size)) and when to add the salt and fenugreek leaves (I added the fenugreek leaves with the spices and the salt after adding the base).  I also added only 1 teaspoon of "hot chilli" powder which was ample for the 7 fluid ounces of curry base.  A tablespoon would have killed me! (and I love phals!).  But I know the piquancy of chilli powder varies enormously though.

Unfortunately, I found the curry sauce disappointing.  As Haldi mentioned, it lacked flavour and smell, tasting and smelling mostly of the curry base but hotter (as in chilli hot).  It was also quite thick and stodgey.  I got very little oil separation.  I think there was too little oil (2 tablespoons only) for the prescribed amount of spices.

So I then made a vindaloo to my normal recipe using significantly more oil (maybe 75ml or so), a little onion (1 tablespoon - finely chopped), a little green pepper (1 tablespoon - finely chopped) garlic (1 tsp - pureed), ginger (0.5tsp - pureed), significantly more (and slightly different) spice mix (1.5 teaspoon), more tomato paste (2 teaspoons), more dried fenugreek (2 teaspoons - crumbled), a little vinegar (splash), a little sugar (1 teaspoon or so - white granulated). 

I felt it was a vast improvement and produced a very palettable vindaloo, demonstrating that the base is capable of producing a fairly decent curry.  Just goes to show that you can actually mix and match curry base recipes and main curry recipes to a fair degree 

Either way, both resultant curries (typically) lacked significant attributes of a decent BIR curry.  Those being:

• Richness
• Savouriness
• Intensity (depth) of smell and flavour

Maybe this is all down to the curry base, or maybe it is all down to the spice mix and how it is fried, but I really find it hard to understand how the intense smell and taste of a typical BIR curry can be produced without the addition of more spices and/or other ingredients (e.g. stock)

I would be very interested to hear, and look forward to hearing, Bruce's views on these points 

Thanks for the recipes and tips Bruce 

[Cory Ander]

Here are the pics:

Top - Bruce's curry base before blending
Middle - Bruce's curry base after blending
Bottom - Chicken Vindaloo (to my adapted recipe)

[adriandavidb]

I have yet to try this base and finished dish, but I noticed a couple of differences between Bruce's latest ideas, and those propounded before:

In Bruce's first articles for the Curry Club magazine, he made three different spice mixes: mild, medium and hot.  His later article recommended one mix, I call this "Bruce Edwards' mark 2", I use this pretty much all the time and I think it's very good!  From my own experience of a chef demonstration this makes sense. apart from chillie powder and chat masala (only used in one dish apparently), this chef only used one spice mix, and it looked very much like Bruce's.  Bruces latest mix is very similar to the "mark 2", except paprika has now been omitted.  I would be very interested to know why??

My second question concerns technique and chemistry!  It seems to be received wisdom that spices have to be fried to release their flavour, simply boiling them leaves a raw taste.  The problem with frying spices of course, is not burning them!  In the preparation of the finished dish Bruce fries onion/pepper to give an indication of oil temp (how vigorously they're frying provides an indication of temperature), and to some extent to control temperature as well:  frying anything that contains water (eg onion/pepper) will tend to keep the temp at 100 c as long as moisture remains in the veg, 'local' variations arround the pan excepted!.  The chef I saw achieved the same effect by putting a fraction of a ladle-full of base in the pan before adding the spices (a couple of Tbs I recall).  I do similar.  

Question is, does the spice need a little while above 100 c to impart optimum flavour, this COULD happen as temperature climbs when onion/pepper frys itself dry in the final dish!  BUT, the spice added to Bruce's BASE (as opposed to final dish) could NOT possibly do this because such a large excess of water is present!, and yet, presumably, the spice still does its job!

Bare with me, I'm getting to my point....

Surely then, provided a large excess of oil is present to draw the flavour out of the spice mix (the active flavours in spice are lipd-soluble, so the oil needs to be present), a small percentage of water, to stop temp climbing above 100 c would not be detremental, because obviously it does not cause a probelm with the spice flavouring Bruce's base

My view then, is that it does not matter a jot about how fernickity one is about frying spices in the final dish, provided:-

1)  An excess of oil/fat is present

2)  A small amount quantity of water (or moisture in added material) is present also.

3)  Frying continues long enough to ensure the spices are cooked ('toffee' smell).

If the above were not true, the relatively large amount of spice in Bruce's base would not be adaquately cooked, and I presume it is, becuase he obviously knows what he's doing!

Sorry,  if I appear to done this point to death, but it is one of the crucial bits!

I usually add a chopped chillie, and maybe a curyy-leaf or two, to the hot oil (3 or 4 tbs for a 2 person portion), and when sizzling , add half a ladle of base before chucking in my spices, fry 'till toffe smell , and oil JUST begining to separate, this takes about 1 minute, add rest of base and ingredients and it works every time!  I'm not suggesting it's perfect but I'm very happy with the result.

Comments chaps and chapesses!