Topic: How hot do i have to get my spices?

[Rai]

hi guys/gals
but do you need to know what temperature to get the spices to to release there oils

Surely it would help gary?  Surely we can then consider the process and technique that best facilitates this?

if you hab=ve the time to measure the pan then you must be doing something wrong mate cos when i add the spices in to the pan very quick stir add the tomato puree quick stir the spices release the toffee type aroma add the base sauce

What do you do gary?  Do you add the dry powders to the hot oil before you add anything else? 

and this inital hitting of the pan actually raises the temperature of the pan to above 100 C (unmeasured of course )

I dont think this is the case gary.  I think youre mistaking rapid evaporation of water (from the base) with a temperature rise.  The temperature will, in fact, fall to 100C and below (probably a lot below 100C according to my results).  But it does seem to indicate that your pan is nice and hot (above 100C) before you add the base.

the content of the water will not be sufficient to reduce the heat of the oil/pan to below 100C. the water would have evaporated very quickly and the pan/oil temperature therefore increasing very quickly

But thats not what i found gary

but to actually document the temperature with a infra red point and tell unless you have someone brave enough to actually be in you kitchen without gas mask for when the aromas are released to point the thermometer and how are they gonna know when the time is right( you know not being able to smell or breathe like ;D)

Im a bit concerned about all this talk of choking and barely being able to breath and gas masks gary.  Its not supposed to be chemical warfare attack is it?   

Sounds like youre going to have some serious health issues mate! 

i suggest you get into you locals kitchen and actually witness it yourself

Yes, i have gary, many times, but not with my thermometer i admit 

anyway i do not believe that you can recreate a good bir curry with a thermometer i would try using a good stainless steel spoon! ;D

Quite rigth gary, but surely we stand a much better chance by developing a better understanding rather than wallowing in blissful ingnorance? 

[parker21]

hi rai yes i do add the powdered spices to the pan, just as i have been shown by the Rajver chefs. the reason for the choking and not being able to breathe (not myself)my wife and children i have to open the doors and window in the kitchen because when they built our house they decided because the kitchen has a window and a door into the outside world not to fit an extractor hood above the cooker. and the fact i generally cooking a vindaloo or phall, if you have ever tried the method i think it was on chicken tikka where it was done in a very hot frying pan with not much oil and turmeric and chilli powder were the only spices and only a pinch of each were used. the post said beware of using too much chilli or you may be in tears choking before you know it. if you check in the chicken tikka posts it may be there.

another good post to read and follow is the bruce edwards curryhouse cookery, because he says add the spices to the pan and stir allow to sizzle again if you are using 4 tbsp of oil that will be quite easy to do.

just for the record if you add the dry powders to the pan stir quickly and then close you eyes breathe in when you smell the toffee aroma( i keep going on about) (have you thermometer to hand) as soon as the smell hits you open your eyes and pull the trigger. then you will have the answer to your question!

and i do believe that you are a new age bangladeshi chef totting an AK47 point and zap infrared thermometer

regards
gary

[parker21]

hi rai ofund the post it's called faking chicken tikka
regards
gary

[Bobby Bhuna]

I have never burnt the spices and yet I'd say I'd never undercooked them either

And never any bitterness in your base either?  Remarkable achievement bobby 

I know!!! It's probably more likely that I don't know what undercooked spices taste like exactly, and would write it off as a crap curry. I genuinely have never burnt them though... If you manage that on a halogen hob then there's little hope! Oh, and I swear, I've never had a bitter base.

[SnS]

Hi Rai

Can you try your experiment again please (with IR thermometer), but this time make a thick spice paste using only a little water.

Regards

SnS 

[Domi]

With respect domi people (like you) being satisfied with their results is not the same as fully replicating the taste and smell of a decent bir curry is it?  

So are you saying that I (and people like me, who have posted that they get the BIR taste) don't actually know what we're talking about? Are you somehow more experienced than us? Or are you calling us liars? Does it matter that the people we have fed our curries to also say it's the same or better in some cases than BIR? Are they mistaken too? For some reason I'm fully expecting you to say that they're only saying that in order not to hurt my feelings, which if you knew Yorkshirefolk, is definitely not the case..They're honest to the bone, as it were.

Just because some people claim to have the exact smell or taste which you yourself cannot produce, does not mean that we have lower standards, it could well mean that some people are better cooks, since they can smell and taste where things are going wrong. The fact that you have had bitter bases does not mean therefore that everyone has, that's measuring people by your own standards isn't it? As I've said before, my sister can't boil an egg and she's been attempting to cook for 35 years! - let's face it Rai, the desire to  want to be a good cook is not enough to actually BE a good cook.

You argue every point, yet you have not answered why, when the general consensus is to roast spices at lower temperatures -I'm assuming any high heat would have a negative effect on the spices or their cellular make-up, otherwise the advice would be the opposite- and when most chefs advocate (again, don't ask for proof, it's well documented enough) mixing the ground spices either in water or oil to avoid burning?  Why would you then conclude that maybe the answer is to whack the heat up? Of course you need higher temperatures to cook certain things, and bhaji do have spices in them, but bhajis are cooked at a higher temperature and the spices are already in a watered-down state in the bhaji mix and so are protected, bhajis are also cooked for only a short time, and you could instantly see when the spices were burning as the bhaji would be burning too.

Surely the more we question and understand the basic food science the better off we are?  Or are you also going to disagree with that too lol?  

No, I'm not going to disagree with that. However, the best way to understand fully is to experiment yourself. You have to know your ingredients, which are the basics in cooking. Even Michelin starred chefs experiment fully with tastes and textures and cooking methods, it is from our own mistakes that we learn. After all, I know the smell and taste of burnt garlic, because I've smelt and tasted it...and I've only ever burnt it once! but if someone doesn't know that smell or taste, how the hell can I tell them via text what that smell or taste is?

Domi, i cant understand why you refuse to see the simple logic here?  If someone aint getting their pan hot enough, and never has done (because they use a piddly domestic hob and add the spices with the onions, garlic, pastes, water, etc) all their experience is maybe of bad practice.  And some people will (seemingly) never question if this is actually the correct thing to do or not or whether it can actually be done better for a good reason

I could use the same argument in reverse, Rai, if someone doesn't know whether their pan is hot enough they should experiment and find an ideal temperature to get the ideal taste from their spices for themselves. If someone has a bad palate, they're not going to be able to taste properly, and you can't teach someone a taste from your own perspective, they have to taste it themselves to know that taste according to their own palate, which is where personal preference comes into it, Rai. I see you scoff at my insistence of personal preference, but food will always come down to personal tastes, since most BIRs have their own taste, no two ever taste or look exactly the same, and we use our own personal preferences (there, I said it again ) to judge what is or is not right for our palates. The tastes we try to replicate are not the curryhouses we avoid like the plague, rather the opposite, wouldn't you agree? So how hot you have to get the spices for your own tastes is up to you...Personally I prefer to cook at a medium heat for longer than a top notch heat (where the risk of burning would be much higher, and would cause bitterness) because I like a well rounded albeit more robust flavour from my curries, and I cook my spices to suit that. Which is possibly why I have had more success than others who blindly follow a recipe to the letter each and every time they cook it, therefore replicating whatever mistakes each time and getting a lesser standard of curry at the end of it?

How easy it would be if to get a good curry all you had to do is flash fry your spices at 200 degrees for twenty seconds (I've never seen a chef checking his watch to know when it's time to add more ingredients either : ) Surely if you want to cook like a BIR chef, you have to know the ingredients like an BIR chef? The more you cook and experiment, the more used to the ingredients you become. I'll bet the first time anyone made a curry on this forum they followed a recipe to the letter, measuring out exactly the quantities needed, whereas someone who has been cooking the same recipes for years will use more "freehand" methods. I think you sometimes overcomplicate issues. A novice cook may get good results following a recipe, but over time will change or alter the recipe to suit either their techniques or understanding of the ingredients, both of which you need a practical experience of, rather than reading it from a book or a post on a forum.

Another anology I could use is yeast....yeast, it's reported, needs warmth to allow it prove more quickly, but even in a cold room the yeast will work eventually, it just takes longer for whatever chemical reaction to occur, just as you can actually bake a cake at 100 degrees, it will just take an awfully long time to cook. Just as you can burn spices at high or low temperatures, the trick is to know when they have reached their peak : unless you know that, the temperature is a moot point.

You see, when Parker21 mentions that toffee-like smell, I know exactly what he's talking about, because that's the smell I get too ;D we may get it using different methods, but the smell is the all-important focus, and I can't properly describe that smell, but once you have smelt it once, you know it forever but in order to know it, you have to smell it yourself first, experience and experimenting is everything Rai.

So can you get good results from a piddly little home cooker? ABSOLUTELY!

Does a bad tradesman always blame his tools?

I rest my case ;D

[parker21]

hi domi
but how hot is that? ;)lol

rai the whole spices/seeds are slow roasted to release the oils prior to grinding as it makes it easier. you fry the powder to cook out the rawness as i'm sure you wouldnot just mix the in with the base as we all know. as for the comment i made about the base sauce being added to the pan increases the temperature for maybe a couple of seconds if that. 

again when you smell toffee pull the trigger and zap the pan!

regards
gary

this could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread :

[SnS]

I think that sums it all up quite nicely Domi.

SnS 

[JerryM]

Gary/Domi,
The discussion on the toffee i feel is getting us in the right direction. i am currently thinking i need to buy a propane wok burner to get the smokey BIR taste. now i'm not so sure.

a couple of questions in my mind which would help me, my buddy Rai and i would say many others a lot:

1) do you have a feel on if it's a specific spice or are there a few essential spices needed to get the toffee smell
2) is the toffee smell only produced from the spices ie does the tom puree not have a contribution
3) i think i get the toffee smell (a choking vapour i call it) but how long do you need to keep frying at this point - is there anything else to look for. i'm sort of searching for where your 2 methods differ ie hot fry works in say 5mins whereas slow fry works in 20 mins

[Domi]

hi domi
but how hot is that? lol

  Oh Parker! Parker! Parker! :-[ and you were so close to becoming one of my new heroes too! : ;D...Tell me, Parker....how hot do you like it? the temperature I mean! : LOL

this could go on as long as the secret ingredient thread  :

Then would it be possible for someone to set up a canteen offering hot soup and toasted muffins? ;D (I said MUFFINS, SecretSatan :   )

I think that sums it all up quite nicely Domi.

SnS 

Thanks SnS....Somehow I don't feel quite so insane after all lol :