Topic: How hot do i have to get my spices?

[Rai]

How hot do the spices have to get to extract the most flavour from them please?

If its over 100C, does this mean that I have to add the dry spices to the hot oil (at 200C plus) before i add anything else containing water? 

Because as soon as I add water (like in onions or pastes) the temperature will struggle to get above 100C (and will probably be about 85C on a domestic hob) wont it? 

Will the flavour of the spices still be released ok at 100C and below?

[JerryM]

Rai,

very good topic.

i also think the frying time "appearance" of the spices to be related and would appreciate any thoughts

i'm thinking of frying time not in minutes or secs as this i think depends on the power of the cooker and the amount of water in the paste - i'm specifically thinking on the lines of what to look for.

currently i fry the watered down spice paste until the water has almost gone ie the runny liquid paste has returned more to a sort of stodgy paste and the bubbles create craters as opposed to escaping without changing the surface as is the case when the paste has just been added. i do this as i find it difficult to decide when the toffee/choking smell is at it's best.

for info i've used the following as the basis for the frying technique

http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php/topic,1851.0.html

[Rai]

Yes, thanks jerry, id say its a very fundamental question isnt it.

Having said that, im not sure what temperature they need to get to from your answer jerry?  Sounds to me like they cant get much above 90C with the method you describe?  Can you elaborate please?

[JerryM]

Rai,

did you see the link about frying - it is pretty good.

what i think i'm saying is that the spices do get hotter than 100c. i don't know how much hotter and i believe that's what u, me and all are wanting to find out as it answers the question on whether a burner will give the smokey taste. the post suggests it will.

why i say this is that i get better results the higher i turn my hob up (i started using setting 3 then to 4 and now at 5 and aiming for 6). also when i'm frying the spices steam is coming off all the time (the water that i've previously added to make the spice mix paste). the limitation only seems to be on my cooking ability to avoid burning the spices. so for me time as well as temp is key.

what i'm searching for is that the BIR/TA cook does not rely on a thermometer or a timer ie uses experience so he must be looking for something to say "spices cooked".

what does the spice mix look like at this point - for me currently when i see craters - but is this right eg i may be cooking the spice too much. i know if i cook too much further beyond this point the spices burn

We need help and let?s hope the post delivers it.

[Rai]

Yes I saw it thanks jerry.

How do you know the spices get hotter than 100C (on a 3kW domestic hob)?  Ive measured it with an infra red pyrometer and I can tell you that they won't if (and once) there is water present. 

The question is simple therefore.  Is cooking spices at 100C or below sufficient to fully release their flavours or not (irrespective of what they might look like in the process)? 

Im suprised that such a fundamentally important question has attracted such little response so far.  So I thank you for your responses jerry.

[Domi]

Isn't cooking spices the same as cooking anything? I don't feel heat is as large a factor in curry making as some people make out, surely if you can't get extreme high heat -which could burn the spices- then simply cook the spices out at a lower temperature for a longer time.

In my opinion, how you cook the spices doesn't really matter, what matters is whether or not you are able to tell when a spice is cooked sufficiently, either by sight or by smell, which involves technique, palate and to some degree cooking experience

As I have said before, in the early 80's there were an awful lot of small takeaways opened and they didn't use great big burners or huge ranges to cook on, just a bog standard kitchen cooker, yet they all had the taste and smell :

[Rai]

surely if you can't get extreme high heat then simply cook the spices out at a lower temperature for a longer time

Noooooooooooooooo Domi 

The flavour of spices is produced by them releasing their volatile organic essential oils isnt it?  These essential oils volatilise at a certain minimum temperatures.  You can cook the spices for days (at say 60C) but you wont get much flavour out of them!  They need to be heated to higher than the temperature at which their oils volatilise.  I presume this may be below 100C for some of them but certainly above 100C for others of them?

[Domi]

Then why do most authentic dishes require a far longer cooking time, Rai?

As far as I'm concerned the Indians have a far better understanding of the spices than I do and most available information suggests that roasting ground spices over a low heat for a minute or so to get the best flavour out of them which kinda pours scorn on the heat theory, doesn't it Rai?

Far better to know when you've gotten the best out of your spices than to have an exact temperature for cooking them IMO and that knowledge comes with experimentation, cooking skill and palate.

[Rai]

Then why do most authentic dishes require a far longer cooking time, Rai?

I dont know domi, why do they?  What temperatures and what times do they require then?

As far as I'm concerned...most available information suggests that roasting ground spices over a low heat for a minute or so to get the best flavour out of them which kinda pours scorn on the heat theory, doesn't it Rai?

Does it Domi?  What temperatures do you think this roasting gets to then?  Well above 100C I suggest?  And how do you think it compares to powdered spices in a water medium?  Well under 100C I suggest?

See my point Domi?  Maybe you dont see it as a relevant question (judging by your tone)?  Hopefully Im mistaken 

Or maybe youre saying that you think these oils are released well below 100C?  You may be right.

Far better to know when you've gotten the best out of your spices than to have an exact temperature for cooking them IMO  and that knowledge comes with experimentation, cooking skill and palate

And how can you possibly tell that if you dont know what minimum temperatures they need to be taken to? 

My point is that if the spices need to see greater than about 85C to maximise the release of their flavour (oils), then it might never ever happen (on a domestic hob) if you do anything other than add the powdered spices to the hot oil (>>100C) before adding anything else

[Domi]

Dry roasting spices may get them to a higher temperature, however they are cooked for a very short time, spices in a water base are usually cooked for far longer, which is the same process taken over a longer time period to produce whatever change. All other ingredients in a curry contain water which will affect temperature too yet I have never read or heard of anyone specifying that to roast spices, it must be done at well over 100/200/300/400 degrees, on the contrary a low heat is most usually specified (if indeed a heat is specified at all). Please don't ask me to provide evidence, it's generally well documented.

Many people prefer sun-dried spices and vegetables, because they have a better depth of flavour for having the longer, lower temperature drying than oven or heat-based methods which can damage the taste-inhibitors in the spice itself. This also leans more towards my point than yours, however, we may also have to agree to disagree. You can't argue with personal taste, after all's said and done. lol