Topic: Why is my curry base bitter?

[adriandavidb]

Thanks Raj, very interesting; i probably won't use it in a base in that case!

[Assam_ti]

I have also found that if you do not remove that yellow stalk in the onion, ther
can be bitterness.I am still undecided about tinned tomatoes.

[Rai]

Salt is your neutraliser for Onions. If you add salt to chopped onion it will start reacting almost straight away..

Any idea what the chemical reaction is?

NaCl + what in the onions? = what neutalised chemical(s) and/or by-product(s)?

I dont think there is a chemical ("neutralising") reaction george?  I think it just physically masks the bitterness from your taste buds by making it more salty?

[Secret Santa]

I dont think there is a chemical ("neutralising") reaction george?

No, there is definitely a neutralising effect going on but it's hugely complicated. The chemistry isn't fully understood even by the chemists but, in essence the sulphur compounds (acids) get converted to salts, and I don't pretend to understand the full process which is why I didn't answer the question when I first saw it posted.

So I suppose the laymans answer to your question George is NaCl + sulphur based acids = salts + water

It's further complicated by the fact that salt is usually not pure but also contains things like anti-caking agents to maintain the free flow.

[Rai]

Are you sure about that santa?  So youre saying (but not in laymans terms for sure) that the salt is acting as a base to react with the acids to producse a different salt plus water?  Not sure about that santa, not sure at all 

I thought it was a sensory thing.  The taste buds detect the saltiness which disguises the bitterness

[Secret Santa]

So youre saying...that the salt is acting as a base to react with the acids to producse a different salt plus water?

It's an extreme oversimplification but yes that is approximately the end result, and I repeat, I don't profess to understand the whole process, expecially when chemists themselves don't. The point is though that the acids (there are several) ARE being neutralised by the addition of salt. That said, I don't doubt that your point that the salt also has a masking effect has some truth to it too.

[adriandavidb]

I'd be very interested to fine out more about this 'neutralization', do you mave any references for this SS?

I'd also assumed that maybe the salt just masked the bitterness, I don't disbelieve you but I'd like to find out more!

Assuming that any bittereness might be caused by the same irritant chemical (or perhaps its precurser) that causes tears when fresh onions are chopped up (and it may not be).  I'd have thought that this chemical was either distroyed by the heat of the cooking process, or volatilizes during cooking.  It is presumably a fairly volatile substance anyway, since it it reaches the eyes so fast!

Much of the stuff I've read on this thread had suggested to me that bitterenss may have resulted from insufficient cooking time, or perhaps that simmering too gentley with the lid on had not allowed these compounds to evaporate off.

One other 'variable' I've tried is how finely I slice the onions before cooking.  I immagine damage to the onion either releases the irritant or activates an enzyme that causes its formation from a precurser.  It could work either of two ways:  course chopping could result in more irritant or precurser remaining in the onion, before cooking.  Fine chopping could be said to increse the release of (or generation of) more of the irritant and thus 'use-up' some of its precurser before cooking.  It all rather depends on what causes the bitterness.  Is it the irritant sulphur-containing organic compound released by chopping?  Is it the precurser to this compound (if there is one) contained in the 'unchopped' onion?  Or maybe it's something else entirely! 

What I can say is, in my opinion, it makes absolutely no difference to the result how finely chopped the onion is before cooking!

What I might try next time, is to boil by base in a wider pan, which would expose a greater surface area of boiling liquid to the air, perhaps this could get rid of these volatile irritants more effectively by providing a greater area for their evaporation. Assumimg, of course, that bitterenss has anything to do with this in the first place!

Anyway, enough rambling; I'm very interested to find out more about this salt business!

[Bobby Bhuna]

Am I just rubbing it in, or does anyone else simply not have this problem? My base sauces have just never turned out bitter! I bet since I've said that now...

[adriandavidb]

What's your favorite base recipe BB?

[Secret Santa]

My base sauces have just never turned out bitter!

Yeah, I wouldn't get too cocky Bobby. As I said in another post, I've easily made in excess of 100 pots of base sauce over the years, and then I had a run of bitter bases (3 in a row). I still don't know why.