Topic: Why we cannot produce that missing taste ?

[JerryM]

Haldi,

re my life of oil post - what oil was added at frying stage - is it fresh, reclaimed, or made spiced

i for sure only get the very close results when i'm using reclaimed oil. it's time-consuming to produce though and i'm interested in how a BIR deals with it.

[mickdabass]

Anyone up to putting the question to a top notch BIR head chef?






Count me in

[adriandavidb]

The demo I saw yerars back (madras) the chef swirled a little oil round the pan & tipped the excess away, put a samll quantity of base, it made a 'pool' about 4" across, then added in spice mix, chillie powder, salt and some sugar; mixed it up, and because the base had been thickened somewhat by the other ingredients, yes it formed a low 'pile' which he fried  on a gentle heat gentle for a couple of minutes.  Then he added the reamaining base and pre-cooked chicken, he cooked it a couple of mins more, added chopped corry, and then put it into the foil carton.

I'm convinced it's something to do with the initial excess of oil, which it allowed to be hot, but kept from climbing much above 100 c by the wet ingredients present be it a small amount of base, or chopped onion/pepper).  The excess of oil draws the lipid-soluble flavours from the spices, which are kept from burning by the moisture boiling at of the relatively small quantity of base or onion etc present.

Two days ago I made a madras, 'bottled out' slightly early on the spice frying stage, the result was tasty, but not nearly as good as one I made the week before in which I fried the spices slightly longer, that one smelled just like a BIR, and the sensations in my tummy afterwards (that fuzzy warm sensation) were identical to BIR after effects!

I'm trying again tonight to see if I can crack it

[silvertongue]

When walking past our local indian restaurant/takeaway, I never fail to be impressed by the wonderful aroma coming from within. Sometimes when I get home from work (I live pretty close by) I can smell the cooking when I get out of my car in the late afternoon/early evening - it is, of course, heavenly! Eating in the restaurant too is wonderful, as is a takeaway - that missing taste none of us can quite get right in our own cooking.

In my own cooking, I'm happy with the texture of my curries - which seems pretty spot on. The meat tastes good - in appearance, they look good - but there's always that certain BIR something missing.

After a recent walk which took us past the door of the restaurant (there was that wonderful aroma again!) I asked my partner what her thoughts were as to why home cooked curries don't have the extra something. She suggested the aroma might be to do with the sheer volume of cooking that takes place in a restaurant, in terms of both the actual amount of food, but also the variety of recipes - all different kinds of spices, ingredients, side orders, breads, etcetera, all in one kitchen. Is it perhaps the sheer scale and diversity of the BIR kitchen which produces that wonderful aroma we can't quite emulate?

Could the same be said for the fabulous taste - seasoned pans used time and again, night after night, oil used over again which contains all the fabulous tastes?

If this is true - and I'm inclined to think there may be something in this - maybe creating the perfect BIR style meal at home is not possible - something BIR chefs seem to suggest themselves.

Sounds like accepting defeat, perhaps - but I just mention this to stimulate discussion! Any thoughts?!

[JerryM]

Haldi,

Very near the end of this time, there was the amazing BIR aroma
Perhaps it is slightly burning?

Well after that, he added the curry gravy & precooked chicken and the recipe went much the way of all curry recipes
But do you think this "singeing" of ingredients could be it?

just thinking a little more about this intriguing "singeing" idea - is this the same as the toffee/choking smell from the spices or something different.

[joshallen2k]

Back away from the cooker very slowly.....

I tried this "pile and singe" method with a Vindaloo tonight. I thought the extra chilli in a Vindaloo might give the extra spice bulk to create the small pile. I followed Haldi's observations with the onion, garlic, and then the spice, stir fried for a little bit, and then pushed it to the center and cranked up the heat.

Forget two minutes, within 30 seconds I knew something was amiss. I stirred and noticed the spices were clearly burnt. I added some curry base and checked, and yes, it was inedible.

I scrapped what was in the pan and started afresh with my usual method (lots of stirring and shaking).

..... And this is a ceramic hob, not a gas burner.

[JerryM]

i've no base so i can't try out "pile and singe" at the mo (this weeks batch disappeared the fastest ever - it must be tasting better - pressure cooker size in 2 nights).

observations i've made is that when i am making a curry sauce only ie no veg i have to be very careful with the tom puree and spices - this i cook on max heat right from go and only a few secs 10 at the most (when the toffee smell appears i add 1/2 ladle base).

when making a dish ie with onion, green pepper (pre fried) - i find i have to be even more careful as it's near on impossible to get even heat to the spices as they attach themselves to all the veg which is difficult to keep moving in the pan.

in the BE cooking approach the frying is much more slow boat - yet still produce the toffee aroma albeit to a lesser extent. what Haldi witnessed seems to suggest that max heat cooking of the spices (and my 2 burned curries since having the much hotter stove) is not needed and we've been wrong on this part of the cooking. maybe the chef actually turned the heat down and not up to let the pile sort of simmer to generate the toffe smell.

if this is the case then the high Kw burner is only needed for evaporating the curry base down to the right consistency and causing this sort of moorish effect (i presume created by the bubbling and escape of the stream). my much hotter stove (than electric hob) does this perfectly albeit with a fair amount of splashing (big cleanups in the kitchen these days on curry nights).

i've repeated Haldi's observations for info:

But I was watching very intently to see any missed "trick"
Chef added a little oil to a pan and turned the heat to medium
Then he added about a desertspoon of garlic ginger
He spread this round the pan and fried for a couple of minutes
Then he added a small handfull of mixed onion and green pepper
He quickly added about one and a half desertspoons of spice mix and a similar amount of tomato puree.
Without much delay, he seem to fold all the ingredients into a small pile in the middle of the pan.
He turned the gas up high and let this mixture sit there for a couple of minutes.
Very near the end of this time, there was the amazing BIR aroma
Perhaps it is slightly burning?

[haldi]

ANYONE UP TO PUTTING THE QUESTION TO A TOP NOTCH BIR HEAD CHEF?

IT'S A GOOD IDEA, BUT HOW MUCH IS IT WORTH?
I RECKON WE COULD SPEND THE MONEY, AND STILL END UP WITHOUT THE ANSWERS.
THE PROBLEM, SEEMS TO BE, THAT THEY HAVE NEVER TRIED DOING BIR AT HOME.
ALL THE BIR CHEFS, I HAVE SPOKEN TO, DON'T EVEN COOK AT HOME.
THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THE DIFFICULTIES, WE HAVE COME ACROSS.

JUST THINKING A LITTLE MORE ABOUT THIS INTRIGUING "SINGEING" IDEA - IS THIS THE SAME AS THE TOFFEE/CHOKING SMELL FROM THE SPICES OR SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

NO IT'S NOT THE SAME, IT'S A REALLY APPETISING SMELL

[adriandavidb]

Did the madras again last night, fried the spices for longer, pretty much a BIR result, not as good as best I've eaten, but equal to any of the take-aways near me!

I really DO NOT want to sound like I blowing my own trumpet (I couldn't reach, and wouldn't want to anyway!), but just in case I can, in humble way, impart anything....

I use gas on full heat all the way through, I do not use a thin wok type pan, they can overheat too fast and ruin spices.  I have a large very heavy non stick cast aluminium frying pan.  I put in 3 generous tbs oil, chuck in a finely chopped chilie (the biggish finger-sized ones, not birds-eye), and a dried chilie and 4 or 5 dried curry leaves (the latter probably not necessary).  These can go in before the oil has warmed, no need to wait 'till it's hot.  Heat on full, after a minute or so the chillie starts frying, I let it fry for a couple of mins 'till the smaller bits start to colour. Next I add a ladle of base and immediatley chuck in the mixed spice, chilie powder salt and some brown sugar and stir it all in quickly.  It's all sizzling away like crazy, I stir fry on full heat, toffe smell starts, IKEEP frying for perhaps minute or even two 'till (as Bruce Edward's state), the sizzling seems to calm down slightly.  At this stage vertually all the moisture from the base and chilie has boiled-off, but the temperature has not yet had the opportunity to climb too high and ruin the spices (I think the heavy pan really helps here).

I then add another ladle of base and repeat the process.  Then add the chicken and the rest of the base in stages not leting the pan get too cool, reduce to required consistancy, hey presto!

last night I did this, and it worked well, I'm NOT being a big head!  Pleae try it as above, it may be that I've accidentaly stumbled on a technique that works.

[chowie]

Haldi I think it's unlikely to be the poppadom oil that will make the difference. But I definitely think the oil from a whole night's cooking of bhajis, pakoras etc. would provide a big boost to the base sauce. Is that what you did or did you just use the poppadom oil?

I used the poppadom oil in mine because I saw a takeaway do the same
They cooked their poppadoms in a giant wok with two small handles on.
It didn't really add anything noticable to my base
I wouldn't bother doing it again.

What we are missing is the correct recipe
Something is wrong
Either cooking times or ingredients.
What inspired me to make a full sized base was the amazing curries I made with bought bases from a couple of takeaways.
Honestly, the aroma was incredible and the result 100 percent accurate.
My base still fell short of that standard.
At three places I know they present a curry that is little more than heated gravy
And it's fantastic
I do have two other full size base recipes which I saw nearly almost the whole process.
So do I try to refine my recent attempt or completely start afresh?
In the meantime I'm afraid that the majority of this base is heading down the drain
The freezer is almost full (a lot of it is curry too!)

Haldi have you posted this gravy recipe? if not can you if you have please drop a link in.

Hi TGReaper
           I promise to post when I get it right
If I was to recommend a base recipe, I would say the new Bruce Edward's.
It gives the best aroma and contains most of the ingredients I used
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2815.0

Just wanted to add my 2 cents, sounds like many of you have tried many more different ways than me and have been trying harder than me but what I did notice when using the BE base was;

I used my base as test, did not add any meat etc, because I was not sure my base was right so I made 5 different ways to make a madras and noticed huge differences with the same base.

1. Tasted just like the base (bland) think I undercooked the spices and did not add enough
2. One was burnt too much
3. One was burnt slightly and tasted good
4. One added more puree, more oil, more spice was good
5. Last one as above but cooked spices slightly longer and turned heat down a bit and was the best.

So I'm convinced it's not so much the base, as what I'm trying to say is that I made 5 different tasting curries with just small adjustments to cooking time, heat and qty's.