Topic: How to Get That BIR "Smokey/Toffee-Like" Taste (Illustrated!)

[JerryM]

the grated onion was for defo the reason for the black "burnt" debris on my previous cooking session.

i've still got hit and mis on the smokiness (cooked 3 dishes monday with 1 off perfect and the other 2 no smokiness at all).

getting this right is proving tricky and i won't post till i've got it spot on. i think "swirling" the pan during the emulsification messed me up this time. tried it out thinking that it was a good way of detecting when the emulsification is complete. it does help but i think it's a no no on the smoke front.

[haldi]

i've had another go at this but failed miserably. the pan was getting too much black "burnt" debris which is not what u want for sure.

Hi Jerry
        I've had this "black debris" problem
I know exactly what you mean
It took me ages to figure it out
I've seen them cooking meals then tried it at home with such a different result
Garlic/ginger, tomato puree, fresh chopped garlic, onion, pepper
Everything cooks really slow with no burning

It's the old oil BIR's use
It has such a low smoke point, that nothing burns in it
Everything cooks at a lower temperature
The oil also carries "the taste" you're after
It's really annoying because there seems no short cut to produce this oil

[JerryM]

haldi thanks for your thoughts - they got me pondering.

i'm ok on the black debris now but i still can't get consistency on the smokiness. i'm now starting to thinking it might be down to ingredient and not technique. i'm using cury gravy oil (ie reclaimed) so i don't feel i'm missing that part of the equation. the trouble is i can't fathom out what's causing the problem.

this is where i'm upto.

should just emphasise this is a about getting a smokiness taste not the quality of the dish taste which i am sure is the same as most on the site given the posts and pics. this smokiness u only really want in madras and karahi related dishes.

monday night cooked 3 dishes (madras, ashoka karahi bhuna, madras).
dish 1 100% just what i'm after ie full smokie taste
dish 2 karahi bhuna no smokiness.
dish 3 tried a few ingredient changes which did not work.

friday night cooked 4 dishes (CK's CTM, madras, kushi karahi bhuna, madras).

dish 1 CTM no smokiness (i appreciated u don't need it or want it in this dish).
dish 2 madras - 75% almost what i'm after ie smokie taste.
dish 3 karahi bhuna no smokiness
dish 4 madras no smokiness

a bit of explanation. the madras is my std madras plus onion & garlic slithers.

all dishes were cooked in "exactly" the same way and same heat (this was my aim).

on friday night i measured out the spice mix in advance so dish 2 & 4 were exactly the same.

the stove is ruddy hot with the flames lapping up and over the rim. i now feel totally comfortable with it and cooking at this temp. to give u an idea my pan handle is 9" long and i can only hold it right at the end without using a towel. the finished dish bubbles like mad as it travels over the rim of the pan into the serving dish. the residual heat in the pan will burn garlic in about 15 secs. the dishes are cooked in 5 mins despite having very thin curry base.

a few observations:
1) why don't the bhuna's get a smokiness if it's solely down to technique - i'm aiming to cook them exactly the same as madras. the differences being completely different spice mix to madras, no passata, more onion paste, green pepper
2) same again for the CTM. it's spice mix is closer to madras and has some passata
3) why do 2 off identically prepared and cooked madras turn out with different taste.

i intend to work on this at lot but would appreciate any thoughts on what i might try to help pin point what causes the smokiness. my current thoughts being:
1) i need to add a spice ingredient separately ie say paprika to avoid variation in the mixed spice mix
2) i need to time the spice frying/emulsification period to cut down on variation due to a possible fine line between getting the smokiness or burning the dish

it's all good fun though and obviously going to have to make a lot more curry.

i do know that the following are not related to the smokiness:
1) garlic/ginger and onion pastes
2) onion & pepper
3) passata
4) coriander

[parker21]

hi jerry just a quick question, what are the ingredients for you karahi bhuna? ie pre cooked green peppers/onion oil content, spice mix tomato paste etc? and your method for cooking this dish as it maybe able to narrow down your search. another is your method for cooking the madras your nose is the key and your eyes secondary, rty to narrow down when the smoky aroma starts to appear. is it before or after the 1st ladle of base is added? how do you tell when it is right to add the base?

regards
gary

[JerryM]

appreciate your input Gary.

karahi bhuna is essentially the "ashoka": 3 tbsp oil, 1 tbsp garlic/ginger paste, 1 chef spoon ea chopped onion & green pepper (the onion pre par boiled), 2 tsp east end garam masala, 1 tbsp tom puree (in water), good pinch frozen chopped coriander, 2 to 3 tbsp onion paste.

i use the same method to cook all curries (i actually think it's pretty much your method that i've learnt): oil in, as it heats up add g/g and fry 30 secs (just till rawness gone), pan off heat add spice, salt, chilli, puree, 1/2 ladle base 75ml, then fry leaving undisturbed to emulsify (ie toffee/spice smell given off, water almost gone and starts to crater), then add base 2 ladle 300ml (base is thin), passata 1 tbsp (if adding), coriander, onion paste, then simmer and stir occasionally, all in 5 mins.

i can't really rely on nose to identify when the smoky aroma starts as is pretty much immediate when the garlic/ginger gets to temp. the smoke is then there throughout the cooking. it even stays in the garage (where i cook) for days after (particularly nice on monday mornings - invigorating.

the only difficulty on method i think i have and potentially where some variation could creep in is in determining the end point of the emulsification - just as u say when the 1st ladle of base is added. this part is essentially a game of chicken. leave it too long and the spice burns, too early and the smokiness in the dish never arrives.

i think there must be more than 1 variable. i think the bhuna is down to the spice mix - i think maybe the absence of paprika. i think the identical madras giving different result must be down to chickening out too early.

i guess the crux is knowing when to add that 1st ladle of base as at this higher temp i can't rely on the nose (too much smoke) and sight only sees the top of the pan.

it may even be the burner in that it only has one ring which does not heat the middle of the pan directly. who knows! it's good fun trying though.

i do seem to be able to get the consistency when i just make plain curry sauce though ie no onion/pepper. maybe these should go in after the 1st ladle ie pre cook both but i don't feel that would be BIR.

one to ponder a bit longer. i intend to try out any promising thoughts over the easter break.

one thing i missed before in response to haldi was that i am going to switch back to red oil base for a while and see if that makes a difference (been using yellow oil now for several months).

[Stephen Lindsay]

Can anyone put me touch with the right sort of wok.
I want one that can really hold loads of heat.

Go to your local Chinese supermarket and get a bog standard cast iron wok (one-handle). I had my last one for nearly 20 years, current one for about 10!

[emin-j]

Interesting reading this thread  I have watched my curry being  made at some T/A & Restaurants and as yet have never seen the wok on fire yet the curry's fantastic so I don't personally believe you have to catch your curry alight to achieve a delicious curry .
Also I make experimental  changes to the way I make my regular Saturday night Madras , Pilau Rice ,and Onion Bhaji's and have found the following.

Base. (Onions,Garlic,Red Pepper,Carrot,various Spices)
* If you don't already, add enough Salt to give your base some ' taste ' like you would if you were making a Beef stew.
* Not tried yet but instead of covering your Onions with water why not use stock cubes to enhance the flavour of your base ?

Pilau Rice.
 *Fry your Rice in Butter and Oil before you add your water for boiling, deelicious 

Onion Bhaji's.
* Try using plain flower instead of Gram flower,very nice not so ' heavy ' batter.

Madras.
*Tried Onion paste a few weeks ago,Yuk ! spoilt the flavour of my Curry.
*Tried adding fresh chopped Chillies at the Garlic/Ginger frying stage to see what difference they would make to the taste rather than just my usual Chili/Mirch powder.
Just increases the ' burning' sensation and continues to burn for some time ! whereas with Chili powder you get the initial heat but doesn't last as long as with Chillies.
*I use about 9 Tbs of oil for a 3 portion Madras ,I put a small amount of oil in the Wok to fry the Garlic/Ginger etc then when I add the spices which 'mop up' all the oil I add the remainder of the oil.
*My wife commented on how the house smelt like an Indian Takeaway when she turns on the deep fat fryer !this is due to me cooking the Bhaji's in the fryer which have various spices in them but this gave me the idea of using some of this oil for my Madras ( Spiced oil and all that ) and the result was no difference to fresh oil 
*My wife reckoned my Madras was a little 'thick' and needed thinning to give more sauce so I added some water which made plenty of sauce but killed some of the flavour which she agreed  it seems to me to be critical how much water you add to affect the flavour.

These are only my personal findings and most of my curry's have been delicious,  at the end of the day it's all down to personal taste but I will continue with my Quest.     

[JerryM]

emin-j,

quest continues for sure and it's essential reading on how other's are doing.

i agree u don't need to set fire to the oil. when i 1st started cooking at this higher heat i was always setting fire. i have a light in the garage above the stove and was always afraid i was going to set fire to it and put the house lights out. now i rarely get any ignition as i leave the pan flat on the stove. as soon as the pan's tilted it will light.

the smokey taste is instantly recognisable and once achieved u don't want to go back. it's proving very hard to work out why in following CA's steps i get such a hit and mis result. the more i try "experiment" the closer i'm sure i'll eventually get. don't get me wrong even without the smokiness the curries are very good - they're just not a 10.

if u like stock in your base try out currytesters which uses chicken stock.

what colour was the onion paste. i ask as mine is red and thinking of making it dark but not totally convinced it would suit my taste buds.

this "mop up" the oil i think is why maliks add oil, g/g, onion and spices in one go.

on the sauce thickness try making your base a lot thinner (almost to the extent u think it's just like water) then evap it off at cooking stage to the point u want - that way the flavour is not affected as much.

[emin-j]

Hi JerryM,

Thank's for the tip about the thickness of the base I'll try making it thinner next time ,to be honest it was a bit on the heavy side perhaps adding stock rather than water may improve the flavour of the base as well as thin it down a bit.I noticed in the Malik's video's his base is very ' curry sauce ' looking ( brownish in colour )
whereas my base is more like the colour of Tomato Soup.
Also the amount and method of adding Spices ( dive in with the chef's spoon ! )is a lot different than me measuring it out with a tea spoon ! :

The Onion Paste was dark Brown ,Caramelised Onion,Garlic,Oil,whizzed to a paste ,the Onion seemed to overpower the usual flavour of the Madras.

My wife thinks I'm nuts making changes to what she reckons is a perfect Madras and my Daughter and Son in Law who live nearby had a tub of my Madras and phoned to say how much better my Curry was compared to our local award winning T/A  : which we have used for the past few years .....until I found this site  ;D 

[JerryM]

emin-j,

given what u say on the colour of your base i would do a side by side ingredient comparison with those on the site - say the saffron for example as your ingredients suggest very similar. alternatively post it and get member thoughts. i'd certainly encourage a post on the madras recipe.

thanks for the description on the onion paste. i do intend trying out the dark take on it but fear i may get your result too which would not be good for my taste buds.

the good ladies don't seem to understand curry - stick to your guns and keep any thought out changes going but mindfull of the 80/20 rule on effort and gains.