Topic: How to Get That BIR "Smokey/Toffee-Like" Taste (Illustrated!)

[Derek Dansak]

the steps on this thread are great. however i dont get where the water is added, and at what step? or is the adding of the base + its water content = to adding water. Are you suggesting adding water to hot oil, during the initial 4 minute cooking process , at start of knocking up a curry?

[JerryM]

it's amazing how u can miss vital clues.

CA says to add water to the spice mix which is added after the tom puree.

I follow this method for my cooking but i read in other posts that a better toffee/choking smell is achieved by adding the spices dry - which it does.

i then add a 1/2 ladle of base and then fry this off. it works a treat until u switch from electric hob to gas burner (albeit 2.5kw). i now find it too easy to burn the spices and should have re-read CA's brief. the oil/spice trials confirmed this extra water to be essential. i believe u can add either as water to the spice or water to the tom puree provided if the water is added to the puree the spice is added at the same time or not long after.

the choking smell comes from chilli if it's in the spice mix (a small amount being a must for me).

[Derek Dansak]

Thanks jerry, thats a bit clearer now. It also explains why the bir tom puree is watered down. i must start doing that with my new tub of white tower. i actually compared the taste of white tower puree to standard, sainsbury tubed tom puree , and they are very similar. both quite sweet. so anyone who cant get white tower, should not worry about using a good supermarket tom puree, as its dam similar. although white tower is best. luckily i work near 6 indian grocers, and am practically tripping over tubs of pataks, and white tower tins every lunch time!

[JerryM]

emm! i've been waiting for my local man to get the white tower in stock (he has some Italian stuff).

i was hoping it might have had a better taste.

sound's like you're as happy (sad) as me and will enjoy this previous post on Indian & Asian Supermarkets http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2776.0

[JerryM]

i've now upgraded my stove from 2.5kw to something in the region of 8kw (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=2944.msg30042#msg30042).

immediately in doing so i got a lot more smoke than i've ever done before and that smell that u get going into a BIR (not the spice smell). the difference in cooking is stark and very different.

the trouble is it's very hit and miss in getting the smell into the taste.

i cooked 6 off curry sauces in total using my normal method (effectively CA's steps). 3 off were no good (no better than 2.5kw stove), 1 off had a hint of what i was after, 1 off was burnt and 1 off hit the mark 100%.

i don't know what was right in the 1 off and wrong in the rest though. in fact i think u could actually cook at the higher kw and never get the taste. there is something that's in the method but not obvious. 

possibilities include:
1) flaming the oil
2) frying the g/g paste
3) catching the spices whilst emulsifying
4) not stirring at certain important times

i don't really have a clue. it could even be a bit of all.

a few other things crept into the picture which i'm not certain on but i add in case they are of interest:
1) i felt i needed to add more oil due to the flaming
2) i felt the amount of spices and the type/individual amounts less important - for the 1st time i felt the spoon measurements did not need to be that exact and the name on the mix powder not that critical
3) i needed to water the base down much thinner than normal (i did this late on, it had no effect on the taste but made cooking easier)

[JerryM]

given i couldn't pinpoint what causes the smokey taste during the cooking i felt i needed to try a different approach to resolve the hit and mis taste.

i took some veg oil, curry powder, watered tom puree, water, g/g paste out to my new kitchen (the garage) and had a few hrs trying the individual steps and tasting the results. i also went back after a while for some salt.

the whole experience was well worth it and would recommend it as sort of "essential" training.

it re-enforced to me that cooking at the higher heat is actually no different in principle to cooking at say 2.5kw. it's crucial not to burn and a measure of success is for the pan surfaces to stay smooth ie no burnt "black" debris (or at least minimal as it's almost impossible to avoid a little).

the results of the "training" were:
1) u don't want the oil to get too hot as it burns and produces an inferior taste
2) flaming the oil gives no taste improvement
3) adding water at any stage gives no taste improvement
4) adding water can avert burning
5) as know previously the emulsification "frying of the spices" causes the tom puree to become very sweet. the addition of a little salt greatly improves the effect.
6) as known previously if there's very little water during the emulsification the spices will be prone to burning
7) over cooking the garlic/ginger paste causes it to stick to the pan and is then prone to burning

having got a hunch from the training i cooked 4 off dishes: 3 off with 100% smokey flavour and 1 off 75%.

from this i now believe:
1) the stove can run at full whack throughout
2) the garlic/ginger paste can be added as the oil heats up and should not be over cooked (only needs the rawness cooking out)
3) once the tom puree and spices have been added and mixed the pan should be left essentially to emulsify without stirring (max 1 off stir towards the end around the base rim). it's at this point that the smokey taste is created. it's difficult to determine what exactly the mechanism is as there are 2 stages: initial flaming during the mixing and then boiling during the emulsification. if u have a preference to fryoff some of the base then this should be added at the time of the tom puree and spices
4) the base, passata, coriander, onion paste etc can then be added and reduced. there is no extra "smokiness" created during this reduction so the cooking can be stopped or the heat turned down as needed.

the only other thing to add is the heat is quite critical to producing the smokey taste. initially  during the training i had the stove lower (due to the small qty of ingredients being used). without realising i'd actually missed out on the smokiness and it was only by going back up to full whack (well almost - as the flames engulf the pan otherwise) that the smokey taste was obtained. i realised the mistake due to the lack of the specific smell associated with the smokey flavour. this smell is a very good guide to knowing how you're doing.

[JerryM]

i've had another go at this but failed miserably. the pan was getting too much black "burnt" debris which is not what u want for sure.

i think i went back into my previous 3wk cooking mode without realising. i also think i did not use enough oil (using 2 tbsp when i now think 4 tbsp is probably the min at this heat). i'd also switched from cooking curry sauce to curry "dishes" (ie addition of onion and green pepper) and i think moved out of my area of expertise for sure.

i'm still though at a loss as to why it's so hit and miss. still have some base left for later in the week but expectations are low.

[JerryM]

i am now pretty much 100% sure that the bad night "burnt/black debris" was down to using grated onion (see post http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=3393.0).

will have to wait to make base again to be totally sure but expectations on cracking the hit and mis are again high.

[joshallen2k]

Hi Jerry,

Maybe I'm missing the point of your trials and tribulations here, but why do you feel that additional onion is necessary for Madras?

In a Bhuna/Jalfrezi/Dopiaza, OK, but I was under the impression you were optimizing the Madras. The other ones I've already determined to be BIR standard (CK's bhuna and Stew's Jalfrezi anyway).

Madras is still not 100% for me either, but adding onion I don't think is the way... Appreciate your thoughts.

-- Josh

[JerryM]

Josh,

sorry for the confusion. the onions are not relevant to the trials - it was just that when i used grated onion i got a real disaster. i was not sure at the time what had caused it and why i'd lost the smokey flavour - hence the update once i'd realised the grated onion had side tracked me.

the onion & madras connection for me is down to me trying to get sylhety. i am happy with madras and have recently posted recipe.

just to clarify this post is about getting that smokey flavour.