Topic: How do you know when you are "there" ?

[Secret Santa]

In relation to Base Gravy, is the oil essential, or is it neutralized?

On the face of it it seems quite a conundrum doesn't it?

So, as I said, in my personal experience (i.e. having actually done this to test it), the use of recovered oil (curry oil) in the base is relatively pointless as its potency, essence, call it what you will, gets lost over the long cook. That's not to say its addition does nothing and doesn't improve a base but for me it doesn't maintain the promise that the intense spiced oil on its own might promise at the start.

But the "manky" oil is a different beast as I expounded above in answer to Phil. It isn't just spices cooked in oil. And my conjecture, based on Pete's experience and my own small experiments with just bhajis (an insufficient but nonetheless enlightening test), is that the manky oil, which is not just a product of oil and spices, will affect the base in a way that recovered oil will not, even over the long cook.

But it is conjecture because I have not made what I consider real manky oil nor have I been fortunate enough, unlike Pete, to get some real manky oil to test. However it's still my belief that this is the "taste" I am missing, i.e. the last 5%. Maybe if I can whip up the enthusiasm one day I might ponder how to really make this stuff on a small scale and finally put this to bed.

[Garp]

In relation to Base Gravy, is the oil essential, or is it neutralized?

However it's still my belief that this is the "taste" I am missing, i.e. the last 5%. Maybe if I can whip up the enthusiasm one day I might ponder how to really make this stuff on a small scale and finally put this to bed.

Let us know if you come across any unicorns, leprechauns or mermaids on the way

[Secret Santa]

Let us know if you come across any unicorns, leprechauns or mermaids on the way

Cheeky! 

[pete]

It was always possible that I misunderstood pete's original post and I've said that previously.  As far as I'm now concerned, pete answered my initial question satisfactorily here.

I'm sorry if that was misleading
No,  I meant after countless recipes, I don't believe you can make a restaurant curry base at home.
I think the result is only obtainable by using seasoned bhajee oil and cooking on a very large scale
The aroma of a sample base, when heated, is the BIR aroma
You can't get that, with a home made base

I now believe he originally used the word "secret" in a general and broad sense, which was not intended to be interpreted literally. He may have said the key to success is in the Base Gravy.  I can understand how his claim of it "not being on this or any other site" is in direct reference to exact base gravy recipes on this or other sites.  I'm fine with his explanation here. 

yes that is what I meant
I started getting into the takeaway kitchens about 13 years back
and I have seen and even helped to make the curry gravy in takeaways

the seasoned oil is normally added after boiling up the onions/tomatoes and peppers for an hour and a half
the oil is not manky or horrible, or in any way bad tasting
I have actually tasted a little bit it on it's own
it's slightly hot and there is a "fried" flavour about it
pretty dull really
nothing exceptional
it's always filtered anyway
so there are no burnt bits in it
But when the oil is added,,to the boiled onions, within 5 minutes, the BIR aroma just hits you, and doesn't disappear
It's just there really strong
Even after blending

After it's blended
the gravy was always boiled again until the oil rose to the top
Then you let the gravy cool down a bit
Maybe an hour
Scoop off all the oil you could, for starting off the curries
this oil always seems to be held in old tomato puree cans
there is normally one on the cooker full of this oil


what can I say?
When I add fresh oil to my boiled onions, at home, I don't get the aroma

ANYTHING used with proper BIR gravy, has the BIR taste and aroma
even if you made a curry with no extra spices or garlic ginger or any main ingredient, which they sometimes do
I've seen people have chips and curry sauce made like that, and it's still BIR tasting

I also think cooking the base very large helps too

These are just my thoughts, perhaps I'm wrong
But I hit a wall on my cooking over 10 years ago which I just can't get through
and these are my conclusions

[livo]

*¹ Manky def: adjective 1) Inferior, worthless, 2) Dirty and unpleasant.

Pete, Hopefully, the use of the term "manky oil" in this discussion refers to definition 1) in terms of further economic value and usefulness to a business. 

I agree with you SS in that this dichotomy of individual experiences does pose a dilemma. 

I guess the only thing left is to try it for myself.  I've tried cooking dishes using my own reclaimed oil. I once cooked a failed batch of bhajis and gave up as I didn't care for them and neither did anybody else.  I haven't tried CA's  Spiced Oil or Steven Heap's adaptation of Niter Kebbeh, (which appears to be a very close match to Ghanna's oil or Netter Kebbeha, http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=190.msg1078#msg1078 )  I've only ever used fresh oil to prepare a base gravy.

When I next fuel up the ute I'll ask my service station attendant friend his take on using manky oil in the AIR industry.  I understand very well that there are 2 distinct camps on the forum as to the benefits or requirements of using old oil or new manually spiced oil.

[livo]

I believe bunjarra is a much undervalued component, increasingly omitted by BIRs as it takes too much manual labour to produce it, but when added to the precooks of the veg and meat, it introduces "the taste" into the final dishes.

Let me say however, I do not have a good bunjarra recipe and don't think the Ashoka one which is on this forum is especially close to what I'm seeking. A very long cook which lets the deep savoury spice flavours leach into the oil and onions seems essential, with Asian bay being a key component.

Sverige, I don't know if you've ever tried this, but I have and I've revisited again with a batch today.  Masala Mark's Aussie IR Onion Gravy. It's actually more a paste really.
 http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=4923.0  This sounds to be almost exactly what you are describing.  I've used both the method and also these pastes in other cooking along more BIR style as well.  This onion gravy is pretty tasty and could do the trick for you.  I make 1/2 quantity usually.

I've also made a 1/4 quantity of Masala Mark's Tomato Gravy. This too is really quite delicious.

[Secret Santa]

the oil is not manky or horrible, or in any way bad tasting

Yes I wish I hadn't called it manky now. I was using the term in its least accurate sense. 

I should just have said old or used as that's what I meant.

[Secret Santa]

livo, it occurred to me that if you're a native Aussie and haven't been to the UK you wouldn't know what the "taste", from a BIR perspective, is anyway. Have you tasted BIR curries?

And of course that would mean that even if you succeeded in imitating the used oil on a small scale it still wouldn't be the "taste" for you who is used to AIR style curries.

[Peripatetic Phil]

I don't think the addition of spiced oil to my KD base made any significant difference, and I certainly didn't notice a "wonderful BIR-ry smell" when bringing the base to a gentle simmer, so just a waste of 120ml of good spiced oil, IMHO.  My next idea will be to bhunao some whole garam masala in the mixed chill-infused/garlic-infused oils before starting a curry; I will then filter the oil to remove the whole spices, after which I will cook the curry in the normal way.

** Phil.

[Secret Santa]

I don't think the addition of spiced oil to my KD base made any significant difference...

As predicted.