Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: chillihothot on October 04, 2012, 01:18 AM
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Somewhere in my head there is my dream curry, I've eaten it before but I can't remember where, but its somewhere when I was a lot younger. Because I wasn't into cooking when I was younger I never made a note of it. What memories I do have apart from having a light head from a few cobras is that the there was this perfect balance and synergy of smell, texture and aroma. Smooth - yes, Vibrant - yes, Tangy - sometimes, Aromatic - definately. I've been working backwards from this memory.
Originally I was seeking out that vibrant taste, so I really piled in the spices, and I got vibrant but also a bit unsettling and raw and overwhelming. Overcompensation was easy to do because it seemed logical, a real blast to the palate.
Seeking a more older, mature taste (bit still vibrant) I finally added less spice and the savouriness came through. I had been thinking about spice in the wrong way, its not the only driver for flavour.
To acheive tang I add in cold fresh lemon juice at the last minute. This worked well for me. But again, lessons to learn when to use it, as appropriate. In seeking my dream curry, and trying to combine all these attributes my curry identity had become confused.
And also I still felt it was still a bit "raw", so I decided to cook my base for an extra hour, and let it settle, to get the smoothness. Maybe I should let it cook all day, and then let it rest till room temperature.
So far this is where I'm at: seeking that refined, smooth aspect. If I can get this right, I'm very very close to that elusive curry.
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All makes perfect sense to me except for this part :
And also I still felt it was still a bit "raw", so I decided to cook my base for an extra hour, and let it settle, to get the smoothness. Maybe I should let it cook all day, and then let it rest till room temperature.
Unless your base is already highly spiced, I cannot see how that will contribute; if your base is mainly onion, garlic, ginger, water, oil, salt, with perhaps a light spicing of turmeric and paprika, I cannot see how the rawness might be coming from the base. I suspect it may be more to do with your technique for cooking the main course : if, for whatever reason, the spices are not being fully cooked in that, then I can envisage a raw element in the final dish. Does this make sense, or have I misunderstood your use of "raw" ?
** Phil.
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My curry base is all those plus tinned tomatos, and those big red dried chillis. I think its Taz's base (not entirely sure)?
I'm very fond of the base actually, but in the finished curry theres that aged-ness missing, it tastes...too fresh, but not in a good way more in a immature way.
I tend to only cook base for an hour, so I'm thinking maybe 3 hours and let it cool through to settle, before freezing.
Thoughts? Similar problems?
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My curry base is all those plus tinned tomatos, and those big red dried chillis. I think its Taz's base (not entirely sure)?
Yes, sorry, the tomatoes were an accidental omission. Big red dried chillies ? A bit risky, IMHO : what if you want to use the base for something that shouldn't be too hot ? Taz base ? Not sure. If it is, the following is definitely relevant :
Put all ingredients except Tinned Tomatoes in pan,
Bring to the boil, with lid on, and gently boil for 1 hour,
Then add the Tomatoes and simmer for about 15 minutes,
Allow to cool a little and blend until smooth, add more water at the end of blending to get that soup-like consistency.
Once blended, bring back to the boil and simmer, and when some oil becomes visible floating on the surface of the base, the base is ready,
Note that last step : the 1H15 is by way of preparation; the base isn't ready until the oil has come out (no idea how long this might take, but clearly an important step, just as it is in the final cooking of the curry -- until the oil has come out, the curry isn't ready, which is why I have been known to remove the chicken before the end, so as not to overcook it while waiting for the sauce to mature).
** Phil.
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I understand what youre saying chillihothot.
I've had a similar experience.
Interesting results.
The other week when i cooked for the party of 15, i had made a double portion of chewys base.
Cooked 2 lots of the 3 hour base, then combined (with a friends pot)as i havent got a large enough stockpot.
It was the first time i was using a base fresh rather than from frozen.
When i was cooking up the curries at the party i had the base simmering away with people coming up for a chat.
I was feeling quite disheartened and saying, "I'm not happy, the base smells too fresh and too raw".
All the resultant curries were delicious in the end and i had nothing to worry about.
So,,,, does it mature in the freezer>??
Does the aroma change when cooked from frozen, as this longer c2g cook does?
Cheers, Frank.
check this out too.
http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8712.msg77713#msg77713 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=8712.msg77713#msg77713)
Cheers, Frank. :)
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Phil, I shall try step 5 as suggested, which I have missed out actually. As far as adding in those dried chillis I've done with/without and this certainly improves the flavour, as long as I don't add too much.
Frank, are you suggesting that leaving the base to sit for a while to mature, improves the flavour? Can I conclude that from your experiments?
So I think the plan of action is:
1) cook it for longer, again, after cooking, until oil comes through.
2) following #1 let it cool and rest at room temperature, preferably for at least half a day before freezing.
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My curry base is all those plus tinned tomatos, and those big red dried chillis. I think its Taz's base (not entirely sure)?
I'm very fond of the base actually, but in the finished curry theres that aged-ness missing, it tastes...too fresh, but not in a good way more in a immature way.
I tend to only cook base for an hour, so I'm thinking maybe 3 hours and let it cool through to settle, before freezing.
Thoughts? Similar problems?
Taz's base does not use dried red chilies. I make gallons of this stuff at the Uni and have now got the ideal base I want for all the curries there.
The rawness you are getting is (I believe) not cooking the spices thoroughly before adding other ingredients. There is a difference of opinion on this forum of whether to add the diluted tomato puree/paste before adding the spices or after.
I definitely choose the latter, so oil, G&G (unless you are cooking onions/peppers etc, which you would soften through first) then the spice mix and chili powder, (if you want you can add any further spices/leaves later on, but I feel that the spice mix and chili powder needs to be cooked through prior to adding the tomato puree/paste.
You'll know when you have it right, because when you add the tomato paste, and stir it in the spice mix, the aroma of the spice mix & chili will hit the back of your throat and make you cough and your eyes will water, if you don't get this then I don't think you have cooked the spices quite long enough. They should just be on the point of singeing and to get this right you will need to cook quite a few curries in order to achieve the rightness (if that is the right word to use) prior to adding the tomato paste/puree.
The mixture should then produce quite a lot of steam/smoke as the tomato paste/puree briefly cools the spice mixture and then starts to heat rapidly and will then burn the spices as it gathers heat, so have a good ladle of base ready to add about 30 seconds after adding the tomato paste/puree.
If your base is correct, you will notice that the base will sit there in the mixture as a big yellow puddle and will not/should not blend in until stirred into the mixture. You should then notice a change in colour, the mixture will stop spitting at you momentarily until the water evaporates, then you'll notice little puddles/droplets of oil coming through which will probably be a reddish colour, stir once again then add some more base and continue to cook through until the above appears again, by which you add another ladle of base.
At this stage you can add the pre-cooked meat/chicken veggies or whatever you are using and start warming that through. Add more base as required to your consistency.
This should get rid of that rawness that you are experiencing.
Also if using tomatoes, the seeds can produce a bitter taste, so consider either removing them or adding a sweetening agent to compensate.. Personally, I do not like the sweeter curries and remove the inner parts of the tomatoes before adding to the dish..
Hope this helps :)
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Interesting, thankyou. Spices are most certainly cooked (fried, but not burned) before adding any puree.
The base recipe I got from a Taz mod (the rick stein one I believe). Having tried other bases this one was the one I enjoy the most.
What I 'm experiencing isnt a "rawness" as such, but like Phil says, that lack of maturity/smoothness.
Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with where I'm at by and large, its more about the finer tuning now that gets really tricky.
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Interesting, thankyou. Spices are most certainly cooked (fried, but not burned) before adding any puree.
The base recipe I got from a Taz mod (the rick stein one I believe). Having tried other bases this one was the one I enjoy the most.
What I 'm experiencing isnt a "rawness" as such, but like Phil says, that lack of maturity/smoothness.
Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with where I'm at by and large, its more about the finer tuning now that gets really tricky.
Ok, but I am failing to understand here, how Rick Stein has inspired you to a BIR base somehow.... maybe I have missed something from the cooker of Fish.....
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Frank, are you suggesting that leaving the base to sit for a while to mature, improves the flavour? Can I conclude that from your experiments?
Conclusive!
Something else i noticed on the last base i made was that the oil didnt come readily until i added the right amount of water i.e. it wouldn't release until it was thin enough.
The base made 24 good portions (350ml) and there was probably the same amount of oil as i usually make with half that amount of gravy.
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Interesting, thankyou. Spices are most certainly cooked (fried, but not burned) before adding any puree.
The base recipe I got from a Taz mod (the rick stein one I believe). Having tried other bases this one was the one I enjoy the most.
What I 'm experiencing isnt a "rawness" as such, but like Phil says, that lack of maturity/smoothness.
Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with where I'm at by and large, its more about the finer tuning now that gets really tricky.
Ok, but I am failing to understand here, how Rick Stein has inspired you to a BIR base somehow.... maybe I have missed something from the cooker of Fish.....
I wouldnt say Rick Stein inspired me, no, but he was mentioned in a thread from Taz where I got the recipe (cant find it), and I have got good results with it so far. If you have any other suggestions for good bases I'm happy to try them.
Frank,
I am really curious to try this technique now. How long is your overall cook time for the base?
Hopefully my online order (Ghee and Mr Naga) will come tomorrow, so I can start. Cant wait.
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Frank,
I am really curious to try this technique now. How long is your overall cook time for the base?
Hmmm, theres a question.
Cant say i really noticed the timings sorry. I just cook by feel. At a guess i would say anywhere between 2.5 - 3.5 hours.
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The rawness you are getting is (I believe) not cooking the spices thoroughly before adding other ingredients. There is a difference of opinion on this forum of whether to add the diluted tomato puree/paste before adding the spices or after.
I definitely choose the latter, so oil, G&G (unless you are cooking onions/peppers etc, which you would soften through first) then the spice mix and chili powder, (if you want you can add any further spices/leaves later on, but I feel that the spice mix and chili powder needs to be cooked through prior to adding the tomato puree/paste.
You'll know when you have it right, because when you add the tomato paste, and stir it in the spice mix, the aroma of the spice mix & chili will hit the back of your throat and make you cough and your eyes will water, if you don't get this then I don't think you have cooked the spices quite long enough. They should just be on the point of singeing and to get this right you will need to cook quite a few curries in order to achieve the rightness (if that is the right word to use) prior to adding the tomato paste/puree.
The mixture should then produce quite a lot of steam/smoke as the tomato paste/puree briefly cools the spice mixture and then starts to heat rapidly and will then burn the spices as it gathers heat, so have a good ladle of base ready to add about 30 seconds after adding the tomato paste/puree.
Although my technique is the same as yours, Bob, I don't get "spice mix & chili hitting the back of my throat and making me cough and my eyes water". I suspect that this is because (in deference in SWMBO) I try, as far as possible, to avoid splashing while cooking curries, and I therefore tend to cook at a fairly moderate heat. But as I also don't get the taste of raw (or even slightly raw) spices in my curries, I do believe that the "spice mix & chili hitting the back of your throat and making you cough and your eyes water" is not essential -- cooking the spices properly is, but the side effects are not. IMVHO, of course.
** Phil.
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Phil, you can achieve the throat hit on a low to med heat if you put a lid on after the spices and tomato puree goes in. And no mess either. Cook for a minute-ish depending how much oil and water you have in there and also how long you can resist the temptation to check and stir before it burns ;)
That chilli steam and roasted tomato flavour will definitely slap you round the face when the lid comes off for some gravy.
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Phil, you can achieve the throat hit on a low to med heat if you put a lid on after the spices and tomato puree goes in. And no mess either. Cook for a minute-ish depending how much oil and water you have in there and also how long you can resist the temptation to check and stir before it burns ;) That chilli steam and roasted tomato flavour will definitely slap you round the face when the lid comes off for some gravy.
Well, I shall have to try it ("nothing ventured, nothing gained"), but to stop stirring -- even for a fraction of a second -- goes so much against the grain for me. I know that Chef Ajoy recently advised that one should learn to abstain from stirring, but it is so much a part of my style of spice cooking that (rather like a smoker who finds himself without a cigarette) I would not know what to do with my hands :)
** Phil.
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The rawness you are getting is (I believe) not cooking the spices thoroughly before adding other ingredients. There is a difference of opinion on this forum of whether to add the diluted tomato puree/paste before adding the spices or after.
I definitely choose the latter, so oil, G&G (unless you are cooking onions/peppers etc, which you would soften through first) then the spice mix and chili powder, (if you want you can add any further spices/leaves later on, but I feel that the spice mix and chili powder needs to be cooked through prior to adding the tomato puree/paste.
You'll know when you have it right, because when you add the tomato paste, and stir it in the spice mix, the aroma of the spice mix & chili will hit the back of your throat and make you cough and your eyes will water, if you don't get this then I don't think you have cooked the spices quite long enough. They should just be on the point of singeing and to get this right you will need to cook quite a few curries in order to achieve the rightness (if that is the right word to use) prior to adding the tomato paste/puree.
The mixture should then produce quite a lot of steam/smoke as the tomato paste/puree briefly cools the spice mixture and then starts to heat rapidly and will then burn the spices as it gathers heat, so have a good ladle of base ready to add about 30 seconds after adding the tomato paste/puree.
Although my technique is the same as yours, Bob, I don't get "spice mix & chili hitting the back of my throat and making me cough and my eyes water". I suspect that this is because (in deference in SWMBO) I try, as far as possible, to avoid splashing while cooking curries, and I therefore tend to cook at a fairly moderate heat. But as I also don't get the taste of raw (or even slightly raw) spices in my curries, I do believe that the "spice mix & chili hitting the back of your throat and making you cough and your eyes water" is not essential -- cooking the spices properly is, but the side effects are not. IMVHO, of course.
** Phil.
No, Indeed, you do not need to cook the spices to the point of getting hit in the back of the throat, but the point I was trying to get over is that you do need to cook the spices through thoroughly so as to avoid a rawness in the final dish.
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Ok base is bubbling away :) I also fried the onions and garlic for much longer than usual as well.
BTW the base recipe is Admins base based off that rick stien show where RS stole the recipe from a real curry house.
15 bulbs of garlic. Mmmm I think thats what gives it that authentic flavour.
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Ok base is bubbling away :) I also fried the onions and garlic for much longer than usual as well.
BTW the base recipe is Admins base based off that rick stien show where RS stole the recipe from a real curry house.
15 bulbs of garlic. Mmmm I think thats what gives it that authentic flavour.
15 bulbs of garlic :o or 15 cloves :-\
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Bulbs...no cloves...lol.
Ok so the results are in...dream curry yes or no.
Firstly Frank/Phil your suggestions definately helped. The depth was much greater. It was a vibrant and somewhat midrange. Thankyou both!
However if I was to make an analogy, it was like an amazing rock band, superb all round, playing without a bass player. Those low notes were missing. The hits to the back-middle of my palate still werent there.
I'm not even sure that taste is appropriate but I would like to be able to hit it if I wish.
I strayed from your advice slightly due to time pressure. Cooking time was 3 hours. No cooling time could be afforded.
Very close, just missing that bass now.
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I feel I need to clarify, its that hit in the back middle of the roof of your mouth, I'm not getting that. Argggh.
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You're most welcome Chilli.
Nothing worse than playing without a bass player. Pointless really, i should know. ;)
I believe (almost) EVERY curry needs fresh coriander and added twice in my opinion. The curries always feel empty when i've run out and have to cook without it.
A handful halfway through (stalks preferably) and the same amount of leaves at the end, off the heat.
How about making up a batch of spiced oil and onion paste?
Both will certainly help to add some more layers to the curries.
Frank. :)
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Ok so curry night is swiftly approaching again.
Goal: How to achieve greater depth in smoothness whilst retaining the existing attributes.
I will be using Lamb this time (shouldn't matter). The base was left to sit for over 24 hours before freezing.
Coriander to be added half way through cooking.
I will resist the urge to spoon in the base in a slight hurry like I usually do. I will wait until each ladle is cooked before adding the next. Popadoms will be made available to me throughout cooking time to help assist in this matter.
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Ok the results are in! I doubled the cooking time, because I had lamb I did not have to worry about the tenderness being effected by long cooking periods. The result was, indeed, a much much smoother curry.
So I think the idea of removing the chicken to let the sauce cook off a bit is a good idea.
I just wonder how this is implemented in restaurant kitchens? Perhaps the gravy is on the heat all day so its already pretty smooth. Idk.