Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: Malc. on August 15, 2012, 02:42 PM
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I have never asked this question before, neither to myself or the forum. I just assumed that Patak's pastes were a fairly new concept, introduced at some point in the last 15-20 years or so. I for one have been keen to develop recipes without the use of Patak's pastes. Even to the point that I have ignored recipes in the past for the simple inclusion of pastes. Thankfully, that is something I can rectify.
But I was recently intrigued by the timeline and brief history about Patak's pastes, that can be found on their website. It proclaims that Patak's went to into major supermarket distribution, way back in the mid seventies, almost 35 years ago. It doesn't say for which products, but '84 saw the purchase of their current head quarters, so clearly they had a massive market share of all things curry.
This begs the question as to what point did this filter into the BIR kitchens that we know and love today. Are we also foolish to think that the BIR recipes we 'remember', never contained Patak's pastes?
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This begs the question as to what point did this filter into the BIR kitchens that we know and love today. Are we also foolish to think that the BIR recipes we 'remember', never contained Patak's pastes?
I am /reasonably/ certain that the chilli pickle I remember from my earliest curry years was a Patak's pickle, but only because I tried long and hard to identify the brand by simply buying different jars and then trying each. Until I discovered the Burmese "Chinthe" pickles, Pataks remained my favourite brand. Now of course a pickle and a paste are as different as chalk and cheese, but I do think this may support the hypothesis that Patak's have been on the scene for a very long time [1], along with Ferns, Bolsts, etc. Also see [2], from which we might reasonably infer that the pastes were already well established by 1978.
** Phil.
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[1] The company was started in 1957 by LG Pathak and Gujarati Brahmin. He arrived in London with his wife and 6 children from Kenya, with only
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That is exactly what I mean Phil, I was quite surprised by this.
Does anybody else find this intriguing or am I alone?
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One thing strikes warning bells in the Wikipaedia accoount :
[The company was started in 1957 by LG Pathak and Gujarati Brahmin.
"/and/ Gujarati Brahmin" ??? That would be a most unusual name, even in the sub-continent. I wonder whether the author meant to write "The company was started in 1957 by LG Pathak, a Gujarati Brahmin.". WDYT ?
Also just picked up this two little gems :
There are essential little differences between the pastes that we sell to
the restaurants and the ones in the smaller jars for the general public.
The main differences tend to be between the pastes purchased by the two
groups. Customers of our pastes, which do have a considerable loyal
following, tend to by the specific varieties like Korma, Tikka Masala,
Balti etc., whereas Caterers tend to want a paste as a base for their own
recipes and they tend to buy Kashmir Masala, Garam Masala, Madras and
Tandoori. To see the full range of pastes that we sell and pick up a few
recipe ideas you could visit our website www.pataks.co.uk (http://www.pataks.co.uk).
There is no difference between the Patak's Catering and Retail products,
however please do not tell your Chef friend as we like the Restaurants to
think we are making a product especially for them!! We also make a range
under the Knorr/Patak's Brand for Catering and these are slightly different,
but of equal quality./quote]
** Phil.
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For anybody interested, here's the link to the pataks story
http://www.pataks.co.uk/pdf/pataks_story.pdf (http://www.pataks.co.uk/pdf/pataks_story.pdf)
W
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Thanks for posting that Whandsy.
Phil, I must confess, I didn't read the wiki on it. But have just googled the knorr/patak's pastes which are advertised as professional pastes and sauces.
I wonder how different these are to regular?
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I'd be very surprised if Patak (or any other commercial brand) pastes were commonly used by BIRs prior to the early 1990's.
In my opinion, it is one good reason why BIR curries have "changed" since then.
I'd also be very surprised if "commercial scale" pastes are designed to differ from "domesic scale" pastes (whatever the brand).
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It's funny how thing's pan out sometimes, i'm sat here 10mins ago and in walks the owner of the Indian Garden. Well you just know what cropped up in conversation ;)
So I put the question to him, "When you first opened in the early 70's did you ever use Patak's?" he replies, "what is Patak's?"
I remind him that I have seen Patak's jars in his kitchen to which he responds "oh no, only pickles, you understand?", "we don't use pastes in our curries".
He looks tired and hungry due to Ramadan and with his order in hand, wants to go, as he exits the door I beg of him one last question "do you use paste in your tikka?" his reply, "no paste, no, we put only spices we make in the kitchen" amongst a list of ingredients he then starts to real out, he also added "you only find Patak's in those cheap take-aways!"
This affirms my initial thoughts and indeed CA's comments, that paste's were not in widespread use in the 70's and 80's. It would be great to get further input on this, to paint a wider picture.
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Do we think that pataks and alike pastes are used just for convenience and speed nowadays - prior to whenever any good bir would make their own - Just a though of mine!
best, Rich
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Hi Rich,
I can't think why paste would be used other than for convenience, cost, speed and consistency. All of the spices contained in the pastes are available here and dishes produced from fresh spices are far superior to those made with pastes, in my opinion.
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I can't think why paste would be used other than for convenience, cost, speed and consistency.
And if I were a BIR restaurateur, I think I would probably find those four reasons more than sufficient !
** Phil.
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Hi Phil,
I suppose it depends on what side of the fence you are. If I were a restauranteur, I would put the taste and quality of the food above that of the convenience and cost to make it. Choosing to charge more for a better plate of food.
On the other hand, if I were the proprietor of a take-away, I would opt to choose a quicker more convenient and consistent method to produce a cheaper plate of food. After all, you can't make a packaged meal (curry in a foil container) look good and nor does it travel well either.
Just my view though. :)
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If I were a restauranteur, I would put the taste and quality of the food above that of the convenience and cost to make it. Choosing to charge more for a better plate of food.
Yes, I'm sure you would, Malc; and M. Blanc jr. would undoubtedly do the same. But if you think how many BIRs there are in the U.K., and how intense the competition is (at least in the more populated areas), then I think you might agree that a significant fraction of the proprietors might opt for convenience, consistency, economy and (whatever the last one was). In Paris, there is only one Tour d'Argent, for a very good reason : the very rich dine there, everyone else dines somewhere less expensive. I think the same is probably true of our towns and even our villages, in terms of BIR cuisine.
** Phil.
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To answer the original question...too long!
At least they started to dominate starting in the early nineties as more restaurants opened, hoping to cash in on the curry boom, but needing to cut every corner to stay in business. Bloody patak pastes! ;D