Curry Recipes Online
Curry Chat => Lets Talk Curry => Topic started by: JerryM on May 02, 2012, 07:18 PM
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the Zaal visit gave rise to the adept description for spice frying, "singe and quench".
has anyone bottomed the technique - specifically what to look for or the end points.
i've used a set technique for some time now and gut feeling don't think there's improvement to be had (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0 (http://www.curry-recipes.co.uk/curry/index.php?topic=1283.0)). it's the stage 2 part that i'm referring to ie spice frying. i'm just not sure what the definition of singe is in terms of doing the frying. i certainly have the quench in bucket loads.
nevertheless since Zaal i've occasionally tried to push my envelope further to the "burn" boundary. no glimmer of hope so far hence the post.
i've tried adding the spice direct into the oil but that burns straight away - in the blink of an eye no chance of stopping or control without reducing the heat significantly which feels wrong.
have also tried pushing the emulsification in stages of a) oil starting to separate, b) dried out ie water gone (my norm) and full oil separation.
i sense there may be more to be gained in terms of opening up the spice taste but the line at which this happens is very fine with actual burning a near certainty. i always end up with a stronger spice but a complimentary burnt taste.
any guidance or thoughts appreciated. i am pretty sure i'm currently doing it right as the curries are very good. i just want to make sure i've not missed a trick or the blinkers are too far shut.
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i've used a set technique for some time now and gut feeling don't think there's improvement to be had
I'm sorry to say I always thought it was a misleading concept - as if centuries of established techniques for how to cook spices could be overturned by six novices visiting a BIR in Fleet. I'm not blaming the chef, but the visitors interpretation.
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Definitely works for me...oil, blast, cook spices for 20secs, pur?e/water mix, 30 sec, meat, 30 secs, ladle of base etc
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Disregarding the Fleet 5 or 6 episode wasn't it Bruce Edwards who detailed the careful (and risky to burn) technique of frying the spices until they foam and then stop foaming before quenching them.
My problems arose with the garlic and ginger. I've never ever cooked this mixture until browned without it tasting burnt!
Cheers,
Paul
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Same here, i don't use garlic and ginger mix in the final dish and the curries turn out BIR all the way
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My problems arose with the garlic and ginger. I've never ever cooked this mixture until browned without it tasting burnt!
PaulP - have you tried creating a blended puree of garlic/ginger and oil yet?
I found it really helped me solve the same problem.
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My problems arose with the garlic and ginger. I've never ever cooked this mixture until browned without it tasting burnt!
PaulP - have you tried creating a blended puree of garlic/ginger and oil yet?
I found it really helped me solve the same problem.
Hi Josh, next on my list is to do the g/g puree. Usually I hand chop the g/g into small pieces but I want to try another method. I notice Julian from curry2go adds some water as well as oil to his g/g paste to help prevent burning.
When you cook your g/g paste do you cook until it browns?
Cheers,
Paul
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My problems arose with the garlic and ginger. I've never ever cooked this mixture until browned without it tasting burnt!
PaulP - have you tried creating a blended puree of garlic/ginger and oil yet?
I found it really helped me solve the same problem.
Hi Josh, next on my list is to do the g/g puree. Usually I hand chop the g/g into small pieces but I want to try another method. I notice Julian from curry2go adds some water as well as oil to his g/g paste to help prevent burning.
When you cook your g/g paste do you cook until it browns?
Cheers,
Paul
Paulp, I use a mini blender for my garlic and ginger adding some oil and water then blitz :)
When frying I listen to the sizzle and when it stops you will find the g/g is just starting to brown, I then take the pan off the heat and add my tomato puree, spice mix and chili powder,I find I get excellent results this way and noticed it's the same method as the chef in Mick's (CBM) video's. ;)
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JerryM, I know you have been a fan of the 'high heat' frying for some time and if it works for you great ;)
but since my 2nd visit to my favourite t/a kitchen and watching my (and the Wife's) Madras being cooked slooowboat style plus I commented to the chef that he was only using low heat and he said '' cook slow for best flavour '' and now watching Mick's (CBM) video's which show quite low heat being used at the frying stage (and you can tell it's not that high by watching the amount of 'sizzle' when the first ladle of base goes in,there ain't none !)and the curry's are left to simmer for some time unattended.I have tried the ' high quick fry ' method (spices following the frying of the g/g) and the spices burn very quickly ending up with a very dark putrid smelling mixture :P my best results have been over the last few weeks using the zaal base/spice mix plus frying the g/g puree until the sizzling stops then off the heat to add tomato puree,spice mix and chili then back on the heat to fry the mixture (again as Mick's video)
the curry's have been excellent in flavour,colour and consistency. I can understand in a busy BIR why they would cook on high obviously to get the dishes out quicker but IMO I don't think it necessary to achieve the BIR taste ;)
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When you cook your g/g paste do you cook until it browns?
I look for two things - first, for the aroma of the g/g puree to develop. Second I look for "some" colour change in the g/g. Not brown exactly, but a slightly darker colour. Then on to the next step.
Before when I used minced garlic, it browned too quickly and burned all too often.
-- Josh
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I use rajah minced garlic and ginger and also fry until they stop spitting. I then add the tomato puree undiluted straight out of the tube and fry the mixture for a while to cook off the puree a bit before I add the spices.
My theory being that there is a lot of sugar in the tomato puree and I want to caramelise it a bit to enhance the sweetness.
I realise that all the above ingredients will be cooked further at the spice frying stage etc, but sometimes my curries have a slight aftertaste that I dont like, and this occurs less often if I give the tom puree a bit of a frying first.
I dont cook at a very high heat, but I dont slowboat either. Its somewhere between the two
Regards
Mick
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I've been simply using finely chopped g and g which I give a good pounding with a mortar/ pestle and a little bit of water. I've never tried adding oil but I suppose as it cold it would help stop the mixture burning. I've also added it before the oil was really hot (no sizzle) with no noticable difference in the finished result, just cook it longer. I notice a stickyness when it's ready.
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many thanks all.
just to be clear i'm not questioning the Zaal result. the video although excellent is not as good as having the pan in hand and being told when.
i am now confident given the feedback that i know the when. if i was asked the same question i would say that the line is difficult to judge and the ability to spot the "when" becomes easier with practise. for cream dishes the "when" can be early or safe side. it's only the hot fry dishes that the lines critical ie madras. as soon as little craters appear around the rim it's the when ie water (either 1 chef base or added to the puree) has gone.
one observation on the tom puree (that i'd forgotten) is to add a little salt. this increases the sweetness of the cooked puree/spice. for a good while now i have been putting all the salt into the base (0.5 tsp per portion) and not adding at dish frying. i realised the shortfall using the ifindforu base.
on the chopped garlic and garlic/ginger paste (ashoka). i use both depending on the moment. i also find the chopped garlic paste from homebargains to be spot on. for me on this part of the frying it's much better to undercook. i actually add whilst the oil is warming up. pan is off heat as soon as i smell the garlic - i don't look for colour. i think for paste the sizzle would work equally well. the thing for me during the garlic frying is to continually stir. i think this gets the flavour into the oil better.
many thanks for responses - i can now focus on revisiting reclaimed oil.
ps for emin-j. it was this idea of slow cooking the spice that was on my mind. given the responses the more i think about it the more i realise it just does not fit with the hot method. i have tried both and would not trudge the 30 plus steps round to the garage without good reason. i cooked 2 off identical dish last week by accident - turned the flame down and forgot to turn up before starting 2nd dish - result stark - even my good lady cottened on to which dish to empty first.
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Watching when the G/G paste starts to turn brown is fine with a fresh clean pan but when you are making a few curries one after the other I tend to use the same pan having scraped out as much as I can from the previous curry.
This has never tainted my 'next' curry taste wise but it has left remnants of Tumeric and other spices in the pan which discolours the fresh white G/G paste when you initially add it to the heated pan, resulting with it being impossible to judge how cooked the garlic is.
I have discovered though and this has now become my rule of thumb with excellent results, on a medium heat add the G/G paste to the oil and as soon as the G/G paste begins to stick to the pan (I'm using an alumunium omelette pan as seen in BIR's and recommended on this forum) , add the tomato puree and other spices.
Whack up the burner to full then stir quickly for around 30 secs then add half a ladle of base and mix in.
Once the base is mixed in you can leave the mixture on full for a couple of mins stirring every now and again without fear of burning the spices, this stage produces some lovely aromas.
Once this mixture has reduced enough to resemble a paste , I then add the cooked meat of my choice then stir for around 30 secs before adding the rest of my base.
I then give it a stir for a couple of mins on full heat all the time scraping down the curry from the sides of the pan to get that lovely smokey caramalised taste.
Then I reduce the heat and let the curry simmer to the right consistancy for a few mins or if it is too thick (depending on the thickness of the base) add water then let it simmer down for 3 or 4 mins.
I've discovered this method results in the best curries I have ever made.
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Slick,
can see you know what you're doing.
the sticky garlic point works too as the end point. i use it as a final back stop if i miss the smell/aroma point.
i too use same pan. i don't scrap out. i scrap it into the next dish oil but do the real clean when the 0.5 ladle (for me 1 chef or 4 tbsp) goes in - i clean all around the pan rim at this point before returning to the heat. i also repeat as the rest of the base is going in. doing this i rarely get any black debris and well chuffed.
on the rest of the method i pretty much do same. differences being i don't do the 30sec with the puree and spice preferring to add the 0.5 ladle (1 chef) at the same time. i also keep the heat on full all the way through. for the spice dishes i only add the main base gradually (1 chef at time) to keep the heat up.
sounds like we can all pretty much put a tick in the box for singe and quench.
Once this mixture has reduced enough to resemble a paste
- for info i call this emulsified
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Still struggling to find consistency with regards to producing one dish after another correctly. The Zaal 'novices', (novices at what ?? producing bir tasting dishes at home ???), only tried to observe what was different to their home versions, ending up with high heat cooking being singled out. Trying to emulate this technique at home is the only way I've been able to produce results, albeit without consistency. Impossible to tell when /if spice is cooked properly, but I do look to get a certain aroma after adding the 1st gravy. If it's not there, the curry's a duffer...guaranteed!
I can't say what for sure , but the flavour of something in the pan changes dramatically at the frying stage & helps flavour the gravy thereafter. I've tried cooking out the tomato paste for various lenghts of time, without conclusion. Julianc2g states 1Tblsp MP & stated less spice is more ???....chewytikka....cbm & a whole lot of others say 1 tsp MP. It would follow that c2g would require a different / longer / hotter cooking time at home & would carry more risk of producing an acidic, powdery curry...not mentioned in the book.
Lot's of reports on cr0 about great tasting recipe's, but not so much on how they achieved those results. Does anyone produce those deep flavoured bir dishes, at home, on a low, long fry, as seen in the videos?
My curries are still too hit & miss, but I suspect I'm not the only one
Regards
ELW
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ELW...in the same boat here my friend
sometimes my curries are stunning...but other times they are just OK
inconsistency is eating away at my confidence cooking curries
was thinking about giving up for a month or two then maybe coming back to it
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ELW...in the same boat here my friend
sometimes my curries are stunning...but other times they are just OK
inconsistency is eating away at my confidence cooking curries
was thinking about giving up for a month or two then maybe coming back to it
MMR, My efforts get worse the less I cook, but agreed it can feel like a waste of time & food sometimes.
I've just made the Kushi base & 1 duff madras. Once this lot of base is finished, i'm sticking to the Ashoka kit until I can do it one after another.
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My beef is that lovely smell you get from a t/a and restaurant, I could smell it all day long! I happily sit in a restaurant for a couple of hours and leave still enjoying the smell. Give me 15 mins at home trying to cook with it though and I'm fed up of spices (and no, it's not the same smell :'( :'()
Everyone you go near smells like that, WHY !! I have NEVER had that smell whilst cooking curries. I'm enjoying good curries at home at the moment which I know is more important but truth be told, when I've finished cooking it my olfactory senses are shouting have something boring like sausage and mash >:(
W
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Once this lot of base is finished, i'm sticking to the Ashoka kit until I can do it one after another.
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ELW I would be very interested in hearing how you get on with the Ashoka approach, I have high regards for panpots posts and am keen to develop my knowledge and ability in the Ashoka method.
Steve
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Once this lot of base is finished, i'm sticking to the Ashoka kit until I can do it one after another.
ELW I would be very interested in hearing how you get on with the Ashoka approach, I have high regards for panpots posts and am keen to develop my knowledge and ability in the Ashoka method.
Steve
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Hi Steve, some of my best results have been the Ashoka bhuna & karahi bhuna. I had used the Banjarra onion paste before in some of my poorer efforts which didn't work at all, much as I'd found with the red masala pastes. On the occasions where I've hit the sweet spot with my curries, the banjarra really came to life, as did the red masala. It's really strange how it can transform the flavour of dish into something I can't quite put my finger on. The recipe's are a little unusual, ie getting salt content & some spice flavour from the paste rather than MP. I also leave the margarine out of the base, simply because I don't like it & can't see any other base recipe using it.
Regards
ELW
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ELW
I get exactly where you are coming from, I really reduced the salt content in the Ashoka base as it was overpowering and as for the bunjarra it really sets the Ashoka approach apart from the rest of the bunch and when it works it excels, especially when you are looking to create that "Scottish" curry!
Steve
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ELW...in the same boat here my friend
sometimes my curries are stunning...but other times they are just OK
inconsistency is eating away at my confidence cooking curries
was thinking about giving up for a month or two then maybe coming back to it
That's more or less my position, too. It's very frustrating. The only previous observation, from years' ago, is the difference between fresh and even slightly aged spices. It costs a small fortune, though, to buy fresh packs of everything, every few days or weeks, rather than every few months or years.
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Hi Guys,
Maybe a different approach could be used for the next lot of group cooking classes with Az.
Why not see how much it would cost to get Az to come to one of your houses instead of the restaurant and get him to make the base and some curries there. That way you could definitely say one way or another whether the result can be done at home or not?
Get a good video camera and video the whole lot for future reference too.
I've recently recorded some videos in the restaurant, we don't use hot oil to fry spices in the making of dishes, well with the exception of popping some mustard seeds or the like, and the taste is great.
Cheers,
Mark
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Hi Guys,
Maybe a different approach could be used for the next lot of group cooking classes with Az.
Why not see how much it would cost to get Az to come to one of your houses instead of the restaurant and get him to make the base and some curries there. That way you could definitely say one way or another whether the result can be done at home or not?
Get a good video camera and video the whole lot for future reference too.
Cheers,
Mark
It could clear up everything for me MM
@stephenlindsay - as we're on the subject, we were recently in Soho, (Raj Tandoori berwick St), where we had 2 x balti's(1 of "Madras heat" 1 as it came) heat issues aside(not Madras heat as I know it), it was unlike any curry I've had in Scotland. Very nice, but much much sweeter,as in added sugar of some kind, than we have in Glasgow. which at the moment I'm putting down to base gravy differences in Pakistani/Bengali cuisine ??